Centerfield

Another day older and deeper in debt....

But I did get sixteen tons loaded.

I can understand how symbols can be important to a country or a culture. But I confess that I have to struggle with the idea that a country could face a military coup because of the prospect of a President whose wife chooses to wear a scarf on her head.
http://www.economist.com/opinion/displayStory.cfm?Story_ID=9116747
But that appears to be the situation in Turkey these days.

Cannot the generals figure out that by suppressing the moderate Islamists they are leaving the extremists as the only option? Talk about shooting yourselves in the foot. Especially since the moderate Islamists have been in government for the last several years. And shown themselves to be about as pushy of their religion-based stances as the typical European Christian Democrats -- which is to say virtually not at all. Certainly nothing like American evangelicals have been.

Tully,

But do you owe your soul to the company store?

I've got a fun headline for y'all, (and any other Star Wars fans out there.)

wj,

Turkey and secularism

Blue,
I read that too. Quite funny. Thanks for the link to Iranian women and while we're on the subject of Star Wars.....a link I posted earlier is here

Did anyone catch Bill Maher last night? THEY thought they were pretty funny. Ford Jr. just sat there and agreed with Penn and Gary.

Actually it reminded me of this

You're welcome, Max. Glad you liked them!

And here I thought Voledmort was supposed to be W, and Cornelius Fudge was supposed to be Tony Blair....;-)

Anyway, good link! There was a Stephen Colbert green screen challenge up on YouTube which actually showed W in the Emperor's spot, but that's been taken down now. A pity, because it was hilarious, at least to me.

LOL on your second link! Guess that brings new meaning to the phrase, "Make love, not war." eh?

Max,
Obviously the folks at jihadwatch have a very different view of moderate Islam than I do. For openers, they appear to be ignorant of (or simply indifferent to) the fact that the current, moderately Islamist, government has done more to modernize Turkey's laws than a couple of decades of avowedly "secular" (and therefore supposedly modernizing) governments before them. And with less, rather than more, activity of radical Islamists. (Not none, of course. But less than one sees in places like Egypt. And certainly no more than Turkey saw previously.)

But apparently the analogy to Christian Democrats has not entered their minds. Pity, since the moderate Islamists on the Turkish model represent, as far as I can see, the best hope for bringing the Islamic countries of south-west Asia and north Africa into the 21st (or at least the late 20th) century.

One of my Turkish friends, Sedar has a different take. There has been an increase in extremist violence in Turkey (which many think the government is not doing enough about), an apathy towards hate speech such as Valley of the Wolves as well as less than quick investigations into the killing of Christians, most notably people making Bibles a few weeks ago who had their throats slashed.

The secularists in Turkey have watched Islamist forces in other Muslim nations erode secular protections and they fear their government’s move towards a situation they will have problems changing later. You seem to miss the point. Gaza had elections but that does not mean unacceptable leadership is valid just because of elections. I have shown how democratically elected Malaki has allowed an office of his own government to promote extremist attacks. In other countries next door to Turkey, "secular" governments like Azerbaijan have jailed journalist for just talking about Islamist’s intentions. .Next door to Turkey, Hizb’Allah demands a place in the Lebanese government while claiming they take their orders from Iran and are reloading for another conflict with Israel. The government seems helpless to do much about it. Syria claims to be secular and harbors the worst extremists.

The Turkish military which is sworn to uphold secularism will have no part of this duplicity. The EU thinks Turkey has the same checks and balances we have. Turkey's military will not let Islamist pretense be the driver towards a sudden change of character. Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and even Egypt give lip service to secularism and increasing Democracy, but do many things 1. to keep extremists at bay which are undemocratic and 2. do many things that make a mockery of secularism like supporting an extremist educational system.

The EU had better be careful of getting what they wish for having promoted a free election in Gaza and cautioned the US about a puppet government in Iraq. How many in Venezuela thought Chavez would be nationalizing banking and building air defenses? Absolute power corrupts absolutely and I applaud the Turkish military for drawing a line many dreamers think unDemocratic. Yet when it comes to cartoons, women's rights, scientific consensus, unbridled hate speech, violations of international law (Syria, China, Sudan, Russia, etc.) gemocide etc. principles go out the window.

If centrists really cared about their sacred bipartisan ideal, they'd be gunning for the thugs who destroyed the preconditions for its expression.

As Bush shifted a mile right, centrists moved half a mile right.

You all got played.

But do you owe your soul to the company store?

Nah. My kids got the mortgage on it long ago. :-)

Jean,
LOL....Clueless, but very dangerous the Mullahs are. Dedicated to the Force, the Mullas are not...

I can hear that Beatles song playing in the background at these "functions"....Come together.....

WJ,
Was this what Iraqis voted for? Again, it is funny that Democrats attack Bush's notion of introducing Democracy in an effort to create Liberal Democracy of a secularist nature. In Turkey's case however, they expect the nation to act like a Liberal Democracy with clearly defined balances of power. The same day they attacked the Turkish military, NO DEMOCRATS IN MAJOR MEDIA commented on what happened in a "secularist" neighbor of Turkey as journalists were jailed. It is this extreme selectivity I am opposing as a more Liberal poster supporting free speech, not one opposed to your belief that Liberal Democracy ought to keep the military in civilian control. Yes, the link's comments displays some extremism I do not support, but the blog is one of few that even discusses the issues the Western Media is too afraid to report under their doctrine of IMFLAMATORY REPORTING. Should such information be limited to the detriment of an informed public debate?

Max,
I doubt that's what Iraqis voted for. But then, at the time of the election there were other issues on the table and Iranian Revolutionary Guards were not among them.

I agree completely with your defense of free speech. And the issue of Turkey's military (and other avowedly "secularist" groups) acting against it deserves more attention than it has gotten. As does the constraints being placed on the press by the governments of Azerbaijan and others. Although I notice that the situation in Turkey is (finally) starting to get a little more press attention -- and a little more recognition of what the alternatives are.

The problem, to my mind, is that "secular" gets conflaited with "liberal democratic" in the minds of those who are cheerfully ignorant of nations and cultures outside of their own. The idea that there might be secular autocracies or religiously-based liberal democracies seems to be something that they simply cannot get their minds around. Not to say that there are not religiously-based autocracies (Saudi Arabia leaps to mind, even more than Iran), but only that the one does not necessarily require the other.

Yep, we have the terrible habit of weighing things with our preconceptions. The EU and other could issue a declaration that supports secularism in Turkey, but explains how Democracy can work without threatening secularism or free speech. It is easy to make declarations that miss the inherent dangers of their warnings. We did this when Russia came out of the Red closet. We ordered privatizing everything and the criminals were more than happy to oblige. The EU can tie their remarks into a discourse involving Turkey's neighbors including Lebanon. Perhaps, now that France has moved Right with Germany, a rational discourse will emerge with the US, EU and others on the same page regarding secularism, extremism and even Russia and China. Can I hold my breath that long? I don't know. As we both agree, the global discourse so far is infantile, dangerous selective and blind. Maybe things will change.