Centerfield

Many of the things Obama says really resonate. But I must admit that, especially following an administration with exceptional incompetence in execution, I would be happier if he had more experience running a large organization. Not that that's necessarily an insuperable handicap, or that many of the other candidates do not have the same weak point. Just saying....

Well, you had better try hard. Obama might have appealed to the black community when he was debating in a place of great import to the black community.. He might have told Geffen to start a fire under the issue of black gangsta rap that bashes gays as well as women. Want to know who black gansta rappers want to see as the next President? Obama by a wide margin. You will have to make a case for his imagined response to terrorist attacks with a conversation about Katrina and sending ambulances. You could have come up with a better line.

You will have to explain why a candidate of such intellect gives zero detail to health professionals about his healthcare policy after years of pondering. You will have to make a case to all those AIPAC members who see alot of hot air and little foreign policy mustard.

If Obama can't make his case, how are you? Frankly, I don’t want to hear it from you (no inslult intended), I want to hear it from Barak Obama. I've been waiting and waiting and see only the usual unexceptional pandering to the Left. I wonder if Obama could stand up to Rosie. He hasn't looked bold, independent, strong or very wise in his remarks. Are you really going to hail his principled stand about tossing garbage? Pretty ironic to say the least. He didn't stand up to Kucinich, so I fear the Mullahs and AQ will be problematic. Don't take your shots at Simon. Try swaying an Independent Liberal with more than promises. I suggest you read Obama's comment about HR 1591 issued before Bush vetoed it. Explain how his policy will prevent Turkey from moving on Kurdistan. I would pick Lieberman in a foreign policy fight. Explain his flip flop on Iran (see remarks made in 2004).

The high expectations have not as yet been met. As I posted elsewhere, if Obama continues to fail in meeting MY benchmarks, I will ask him to redeploy his effort back to the Senate (while honoring his service) and consider his bid "lost" and his careless plan to become the next President, a pipe dream. Please tell us his only prayer is more than pandering his way through the primary and hoping the Republican candidate is weak enough to beat. You can't find too many potential fans who wanted him to rise above the ordinary than me. He has dodged and ducked, save the momentary butt kissing and planned associations with principled leaders of the past, who would have rather been right than President. MLK and Lincoln were far more eloquent.

Voting is not an article of faith, but rather a judgment based on facts. I await your evidence that Obama is the "man", based on his performance to date. Otherwise you are just another cheer leader.

Unstated premise: blacks have a big problem with throwing their garbage out of their cars. I don't know if this is true or not. If there is no hard evidence to back up this assertion, then I find it highly offense. I just don't think you should make bigoted assumptions, but that's just me.

Peter,

Maybe it is just me, but I think Obama was making a generalization in order to prove a point bigger then who or what throws garbage out of a car. I think the fact that he is willing to go there says a lot about the man's character.

WJ,

I think we look for experience in place of what it is we really want, which is sound judgement. They are not one in the same and you can have one without the other. Do I think many need experience to make good judgements? Yes I do. Do I think Barack Obama needs executive experience to make sound judgements? No, I don't. Case in point: the Iraq War.

Max,

You will have to explain why a candidate of such intellect gives zero detail to health professionals about his healthcare policy after years of pondering.

Yes, because politicians who have given us hours and hours of details on specific policy iniatives have been so effective in solving the problem. I think what we need is someone who will bring those with the details together to produce an actual plan of action. I think Obama is that guy. If I were voting based on policy details, I would vote for Hillary Clinton, but then again she tried to do something about healtcare and miserably failed because she has the collaborations skills of a nat. If you can tell me what candidate has the details and the ability to actually implement them, I'll reconsider my position.

And tell me, is he pandering to the left when he advocates merit pay policies for teachers, or says that we should embrace trade not fear it, or attends conservate national church organizations to talk about social values, or offers market solutions to environmental problems? I can go on. Look, I am not one of those to tell you that Obama isn't what he is, a liberal. However, I am not looking for specific political positions from the next President, but rather an ability to lead.

SR, I'm not disagreeing with you. And, on balance, sound judgement is going to be more important than executive experience. All I'm saying is that, in addition to sound judgement, it's going to take some major executive abilities and excperience to clean up the mess.

Are alternative ways to get that experience? Sure. For just one, a Cabinet full of people with that experience could each clean up their own departments, without the President needing to have it himself. But even so, I'd be happier if he did have it, because it will increase the chances of the new broom (or high pressure hose, which is more like what will be needed) getting things cleaned up faster and more completely.

It's nice to see Obama putting out some constructive criticism. If all there was for illustration was that one quote, I'd be mocking you. The same thing can be said in most neighborhoods, everywhere. But the article is much more persuasive, and deserves a read.

Good for Obama. I've criticized him for not addressing the subject, but better now than never. I'm still unlikely to vote for him, but that depends on who he's running against.

BTW, what on earth is a "nat"?

Sorry Tully, I have higher expectations. Al Sharpton has been painfully forced to go on the offensive against rap and internal black community problems from the day Imus got fired. At least Al goes on Fox and battles Hannity. I give him credit taking the shots. With Geffen, what serious push couldn't Obama launch with the will? I linked a Rap site a while back that loved Obama and for all I know, Obama is countering some concern about this. As the article points out, Bill, Hillary and others have discussed the views Obama expressed. Numerous black pundits and leaders have spoken up in response to white outrage. Obama putting on an even more forced twang than Hillary while addressing the black community and using his "race advantage" doesn’t seem so sterling.. He should be crusading, not triangulating. Guess I'm looking for a black RFK. Seriously, have you seen the accent Obama addresses a black audience? I’m not seeing the conviction and certainty of the guy.

I applaud him bringing up some self-correction. I just think it follows instead of leads. My remarks reflect a perceived calculation instead of a passion with real details. He's playing it safe. He’s up against a good fighter willing to be a bit bold. I'm not passing my HR 1591 yet, but I remain unconvinced. He has been silent during issue after issue, giving calculated responses. The training must stop and the dinner must be served.

Later, I don't know that he can move center with his policy remarks to date, despite taking "soft moderate stances" when it suits his tactics. Hillary thinks she has put Iraq to rest with the base having withstood years of pounding and she can swing center rather easily and sound tough. Tough times are coming. When the fourth quarter comes, he'll need more than tactics. So far, he has not shown much that is exceptional. I fear every question becomes a calculated response and a statement of sincerity and fairness interjected..soon to delivered by "twitter".

I think he doesn't have the details. If he did, he might not have said the things he has said. As I said, I don't think he could take on Rosie. I bet Hillary could. And for the record, I like Obama, but we're talking President here.

I say Clinton/Obama is the ticket. If not, then at some point he's got to ignore the base and donors and show why he could win a general election. Alpha Dog with details. Show why, with what I think is his unique resume, he can lead America instead of triangulate his Leftish support.

That said, let's see the beef.

Oh, I haven't missed his unforced errors this week. The MySpace story is particularly low of his campaign.

And in defense of candidates in general, it's an error to get too specific too early, and lock yourself into something that you'll regret when circumstances change. Your opponents will be sure to not mention the context of the utterance when using it against you.

Blue Jean,

A nat is a very annoying, very tiny, bug that flies usually in a crowd of other nats. Think mosquito, but smaller. We see them frequently in the Pacific Northwest and they prevalent in many other wet climates.

For the record, I would applaud just as much, if Sam Brownback were to point out the same about lower middle class white communities, having been reaised in one.

[grammarcop]Gnat. The "g" is silent, just like the "c" in gangsta crap.[/grammarcop]

Brownback's upbringing was about as lower middle class as Obama's. Namely, not really, or even all that remotely. He was a pol almost from birth, and then he married money. He came from a "Big Farm" family, upper class for the rural scene.

Obama wasn't raised in any lower/middle class enviro, either. Though kudos to him for working in one at lousy wages. Speaks fairly well of him. As Brownback's work with prison populations and fighting human trafficing speaks well of him.

I'd still be hard-pressed to vote for either, given their issues. But that would depend on the alternatives. In both cases, I've seen worse. :-)

Ah. Thanks, Tully and Starbuck. I looked up "nat" in the Wiki, and found this definition, which lists a "nat" as a holy ghost somewhat similar to the saints. While the average nat's bargaining ability is unknown, it doesn't really need to deal much, having passed beyond the mortal plane.

I kid, of course. "Nat" is actually "Gnat". I've been editing some papers and the uptight attitude tends to spill over.

From My Cousin Vinny

VINNY: And that's when the two yutes...

JUDGE: Yutes?

VINNY: Yes.

JUDGE: What the hell is a yute?

VINNY: I mean, the two youths....

I dunno. First disclaimer: Obama is a likeable guy but I'm not ready to vote for him. Why? History tells me he's too liberal for my tastes and HE NEEDS MORE EXPERIENCE!!!

Anyway, Do Democratic candidates really needs these "Sister Soujah " moments? Are black folks really going to vote for republicans? Hasn't the Democratic party; haven't black voters (democratic and republican); hasn't America gotten beyond that? Does any serious politician support "throwing garbage out the window" or calling women"hoes' and b**ches". It seems that getting tough on the black community (especially for a democratic candidate) is a way to appeal to WHITE voters.

And finally I got to say it. As a Christian I find it very sad that the one of the most politicized places in the US is the black church.(Check here and many other Pew surveys. And yes I'm as upset with conservative evangelical churches getting too political)

Yes, getting tough on the black community is a play to the white community. When it is real, it is unrelenting and includes big shots at the white community, and bigger ones about self-destructive black behavior. Obama makes little waves, but I am hard on him because I am simply frustrated that he is not living up to the high expectations I have. After listening to the Republican debate, I have very low expectations of them. I am not sure a C and C ought to believe our planet is a few thousand years old. How could they possibly weigh in on GW when the evidence goes back millions of years? How can they protect species they believe were decendents of Noah's Ark? Three candidates said they do not believe in evolution. That is unacceptable to me and even more insane than believing we have failed in Iraq.

Don't you see WHY the black church is political? I see a lot of valid reasons. I do not see the same extremism I see in some white churches, nor the same literal interpretations of the Bible that demand our politicians ban abortion and teach Creationsim in science class. So who is really political? Why not tell their black consituents not to vote for Reublicans when that is what many white churches tell theirs (except replace Republican with Democrat). I am surprised you said what you did.

That's a great survey, Chris. One could have a lot of fun with it. I like the question about clergy preaching on hunger and poverty being cited as a political question. If clergy didn't address hunger and poverty, what the hell good would they be doing? Helping the less fortunate has been a mainstay of most faiths for time immemorial, a basic human value.

Y'all should be aware that the very harshest critics of the glorification of "ghetto gangsta" culture are church-going African Americans. And that 73% of all rap/hip-hop music is purchased by white teenagers. Beware of your stereotyping. Black politicians "getting tough on the black community" is not just an act for white voters. What's changing is that for many years that criticism was kept within the black community rather than aired in public, and was often ignored by the media when it did surface publicly.

This link is down. Any help?

Purchased is a key word. In terms of percentages, how many listen to Rap? I suspect the spread is quite different. I didn't say getting tough is JUST an act for white voters, but in particular instances, it CAN be an act, or at best, window dressing. Yes, the black church has taken a tough line when it comes to opposing self-destructive behavior, often in much hasher and clearer terms than offered by Obama.

Yep, I see why the black church is rather political. Temples certainly raise alot of money for Israel and the candidates that support Israel, though Jews still vote about 75% for Democrats. That is because Temples tend to promote Liberal thinking and tend to resist "social conservatism".

I didn't say getting tough is JUST an act for white voters, but in particular instances, it CAN be an act, or at best, window dressing.

Hmmm.

Yes, getting tough on the black community is a play to the white community.

Maybe the complete lack of any qualifiers at all in that affirmative sentence fooled me, Max. Yes, white teenagers play it and listen to it. It's not just "purchase." And I sincerely urge you to NOT consider all church-going African Americans as THE "black church." The reality of religious diversity in the black community makes that as meaningful as saying "the white church," which encompasses everything from Universalist Unitarians to Branch Davidians. All of which, I note, also have many black members.

What I'm saying is that churches in America are far more diverse than most seem to think, and certainly far too diverse for simplistic assignation of politico-religious trends and thoughts on racial grounds. If you take anything away from that, I hope it's the realization that pretty much all churches are "political" to some degree, and to address thoughts and actions one has to address those of specific churches.

Well, I must take issue. The Temple I attended, The Westchester Reform Temple in Scarsdale, NY certainly fostered an identification with the Democrats. This is logical because Democrats were perceived to support Civil Rights more than the Republicans. The issue of Israel was also a problem because many Jews felt Democrats were less anti-Semitic than Republicans were. We all heard the Nixon tapes. Despite this, I never heard a single teacher or Rabbi ever stress voting for a particular Party.

Take a hundred random white people and a hundred random black people. Want to guess which group identifies and enjoys Rap more? Sure white people "buy" Rap as opposed to getting bootlegs on 125th St. A lot of money does come from the white community enabling white CEO to get pretty rich. And Rappers often move to white upper-crusted neighborhoods, but Rap is more a part of black youth culture than white pretense at being "bad", Jamie Kennedy excluded.

I realize black churches are diverse and so are white ones. Many churches have mixed populations. I have never heard black churches advocating Creationism over evolution however. I have never heard a black priest tell his congregation not to vote for a candidate that is pro-choice.

I do get the point you ended with, and have never argued against the proposition that churches are political and diverse, or should not be. I have heard sermons by black preachers blasting Bush and I have heard white preachers blast the Democrats. I do understand your point, but I do not like the Vatican or Evangelicals telling their congregations that to vote for Democrats is a vote for the Devil. It’s extreme religious politics in a secular Democracy. That admonishment is something that never would have come from my Rabbi's mouth.

And can you not imagine how "getting tough" could be an act for the white community or a real passionate and enduring conversation to correct self-destructive behavior? I think there is a clear range of motive and content. Don't you?

Or should I give qualifications and examples? I have heard far more passionate and tough speeches by blacks to blacks than Obama's. One was here by a sportscaster attacking Al and Jesse. I just had the feeling Obama's idea was not to piss of the black community while showing the white community he had some "fairness" over the issue of Rap and responsibility. I call that Obama's "soft moderate stances", designed to cause the least damage to his poll numbers.

And can you not imagine how "getting tough" could be an act for the white community or a real passionate and enduring conversation to correct self-destructive behavior? I think there is a clear range of motive and content. Don't you?

Or should I give qualifications and examples? I have heard far more passionate and tough speeches by blacks to blacks than Obama's. One was here by a sportscaster attacking Al and Jesse. I just had the feeling Obama's idea was not to piss of the black community while showing the white community he had some "fairness" over the issue of Rap and responsibility. I call that Obama's "soft moderate stances", designed to cause the least damage to his poll numbers.

Sorry about the double post.....

As long as its not Hillary..(shudder)

I still haven't decided who I'm for..only whom I'm against (McCain, Giuliani, Romney, Tancredo, Brownback)

(I'm not against Obama, fyi)