Centerfield

I think that Obama is being held by a different standard by the black community. He's called for CBS to fire Imus having talked with Reverend Al.

Certainly, it would be hard for Obama to point
this out in a public attempt to put Imus in perspective. Last night MSNBC had a few black speakers on to point this out in arguing against firing Imus. I think this is the subtext on Imus, although it is not a defense for his remarks.

It is ironic Jackson taking the hard line, having called NYC, “hymie town”. Was his apology good enough?

Again, this is another news story that involves real damage to people's lives.
here

I don’t see any apology from Jesse or Al, nor a statement by Obama.

This isn't quid pro quo, but the over-all discourse is the fair context.

It is amazing that this double standard exists in terms of "acceptible speech". Imus was being paid by P&G and his employer at CBS has every right to fire him for a history of comments.

I think the resistance to stringing Imus up, concerns public perception of these "other" factors.

Now, Obama knows better than fight with Sharpton. I understand the situation, but it isn't exactly Presidential-looking for someone accused of pandering to antiwar,

Tough spot to be in, but to be expected..

I read Sorenson's book on Kennedy about a year ago, and something that struck me was that exactly this kind of dynamic was going on - he got attacked by both Catholics, for not being enough of a good Catholic, and anti-Catholics. But he won, and my guess is that his evenheaded handling of heavy fire ultimately helped him with more people than his religious situation lost. That is, there's also opportunity here for both Obama and Clinton.

Speaking of the Sorenson book, I'm be interested in recommendations for a more distanced Kennedy book; he warned that he was on JFK's side, and wasn't kidding.

Obama's going to need a Sistah Souljah moment if he's going to be a real contender. Period. He had the opportunity just now, and he didn't use it. Instead he took the easy way out, getting pushed into the obligatory slap at Imus while skipping the slap he should've taken at the gangsta rappers that poison black culture--like his buddy Ludacris.

I understand his desire to tread cautiously, which is what led to the pressure on him. But at some point he to show some spine, and take a chance, and step outside of the script. If he doesn't grow a big enough set to do that, the set he has will get handed to him on a platter.

Its final I find CBS's reasoning in wanting to defend young black women absurd. The record business has burned how many CDs of the most outrageous verbal assualts on white and black women's self-worth? This is done in humor. Millions of plastic and billions in sales promote gangsta rap and Imus is the sacrifice for "young black women"?

This might favor Hillary. She can denounce Imus, but pit it into perspective and point out the transgressions of Snoop Dog and 50 cents. She can speak for whute women too, that are insulted every day by recording artists. Obama is not likely to go anywhere near comparing rap to Imus. If Maher was honest he would be blasting Obama for just this double standard. Colbert will weigh in, and so has TDS.

I thought Ford Jr. was deeply religious person. He doesn't sound so forgiving. Where does Howard Stern stand on this? About the only fair hearing I can see will come from South Park. Their 300 parody was hysterical.

Though not too accurate eh, Tully?

Well, I think Imus was gone no matter what he said; this was just the last straw, that's all.

Anyway, what Brian said. Obama wasn't calling for Imus's firing because Imus criticized him; Obama was calling for Imus's firing for insulting the Rutgers' girls basketball team. Bit of a difference.

Hey, Blue Jean, they're women, not girls, okay?!

But seriously, I think if (and here's an admitted double whopper of an if) Obama gets through the primary, which may very well be after the Sistah Souljah moment Tully's referring to, he won't have a problem getting the black vote. If I were black, and sometimes I think I am, you know, because I'm so hip and down and all that, I would be completely energized by the thought of a black President of the United States of America. I mean, come on!!! How could you not be? At that point, he'd be plenty black enough for me, if I were in fact black.

Oh, and I just noticed "50 cents!" Max, that is so white! I'm laughing my wannabe black ass off right now! (ROTFLMWBAO)

Jean,

Ignoring the Imus issue tonight (for safety), guess who TDS took to task over the Duke case? Sharpton? Jesse? Farakkan? The local black community that presumed the student’s guilt? No, NANCY GRACE.

I was not an Imus fan. The issue I was pointing to is the gross distortion of thinking firing Imus somehow begins to deal with speech that denigrates young black AND WHITE women every day. When corporate America makes a select group of black and white males rich by marketing pimp-gansta images on prime time, or when Snoop Dog kicks off Spring Break MTV, blasting Imus is a bit hypocritical. Don’t you think? Its like Reid quoting the Pope to denounce events in Iraq (but not his rally to vote for anti-abortionists) or like Hillary and Obama assuring AIPAC the Mullahs won't get the bomb while threatening a few days later to ban Bush from any military action against Iran. And I'm looking at this from a liberal point of view.

I’m talking about the double standard (like segragation, liberals should hate this), not the stupidity of Imus's remarks. It is a bit insincere how Democratic personalities are tip-toeing around this reality rather than making a principled stand about racist and demeaning behavior and action. If Ford Jr though Imus was a good man, why not support him like Jerry did Kramer (he didn't defend the remarks.)

You know, when a rapper talks about killing his ho bitch, he’s trying to sound serious. This certainly has greater repercussions than Imus’s words. What promotes black on black violence seems to be less an issue to Rev Al, than the feelings of those talented students Imus hurt.

WHQ,
LOL, I wasn't talking just about the words. I was talking about the images and 50-foot gun toting billboards. I was talking about advocating killing cops and selling drugs, you know, the typical rap fanfare. There is some rap I like. I don't believe Chapelle ever put on ho/bitch beating rap. I certainly do not advocate banning nasty rap and if you knew me, or my past or present associates, employees, musical background, or even girlfriends, you would confirm my love for “people of color”. We were talking about CBS's reasoning in defending young women of color by firing Imus. Let's face it, Howard has said much worse. So have many others in the name of humor. I am not sad to see Imus go, just wondering why and for what reasons.

As far as Obama, I would not want him as President to be anymore beholden to blacks as I would Lieberman to be towards Jews. Yes, it would be cool, from the interior decorating in the White House to a rap version of Hail to the Chief.

P.S. White House tribute to Monk that aired on PBS was great. Somehow I don't see Obama inviting Ludicris over.

When corporate America makes a select group of black and white males rich by marketing pimp-gansta images on prime time, or when Snoop Dog kicks off Spring Break MTV, blasting Imus is a bit hypocritical...

I think it's silly to blame "corporate America" for marketing gangsta. When it comes to the deification of clowns selling narcissism, greed, and misogyny, I have a pogo moment. "I've seen the enemy and it is us." Who's buying this stuff?

Obama's going to need a Sistah Souljah moment if he's going to be a real contender. Period.

Perhaps. He feels like a real contender to me right now. And I don't really get the feeling that he needs to have some sort of "moment" to convince folks of his moral legitimacy. IMO, he oozes it. But that's my mileage.

I haven't read either of his books or followed his comments closely, so I don't know if he's voiced any opinion on the merits of the messages in the gangsta genre of hip-hop. But I think it's creating a false prerequisite to demand that Barack Obama take a special stand on hip-hop and its legitimacy or lack.

We all know that some gangsta songs approve violence, narcissism, greed, misogyny, and even racism. But we all should also know that it appears that nothing Barack Obama has said or done in his life seems suppportive of violence, narcissism, greed, misogyny, and even racism. Why should he have to tell us this? Have we asked Hillary, John, Rudy, or Mitt to reassure us on this?

I'm left wondering why, in the eyes of many white folks, Barack Obama is supposed to be the guy who has to "solve" the gangsta attitude. Why do we think that unless Obama takes a grand stand against gansta, then he must somehow be "with" gangsta. That feels like a subtle form of racism, if we decide that Obama is the guy we'e going to hold responsible for fact that many white folks of the boomer generation recoil in fear and horror at hip-hop.

Let me stress that I'm not saying that there's necessarily anything wrong with having a negative reaction to the gangsta attitude. I'm asking why some white folks feel that it's OK or even necessary to hold Barack Obama responsible for it.

If white folks feels that Barack Obama as a presidential candidate has the be the sole representative responsible for the whole black race, that's a problem. And if white folks feel he can't be President unless he adopts a stance that explicitly and prominently rejects all the things about black culture that older white folks fear, then maybe we really AREN'T ready for a black President.

Actually, both Hillary and Edwards made statements. Edwards was actually off the liberal reservation, calling for offering forgiveness to Imus. He won't get my vote, but Edwards at least gets my respect on this one.

I hope all the folks who are going after Imus turn their fire on all the misogynistic stuff in pop culture in general and hip-hop culture in particular.

I think you're missing the point a bit Brian. I live in NYC, so I'm aware of Sharpton's whole history. He has never apologized for the Tawana Brawley episode and other events he was quick to inflame here in the city. When he meets with Obama and then Obama demands Imus be fired, then there IS some difficulty in my eyes. Guilt by association? No. He could have balanced his remarks advocating firing Imus by pointing out that media makes vast money (as well as black recording artists) advocating sexist, violent, racist garbage directed towards whites AND BLACKS. I have heard Sharpton and Jackson both claim the N word should not be condoned and that black on black violence is terrible, but their efforts here pale beside any attempt to jump on any news story and suck it for exposure.

What does this have to do with Obama? He will not win without the white vote, will he? When you defend the group you recently re- identified with in Selma, you must also address the much more damaging issue of what is fueling the assault on "young women of color" and constraining the black community. It is not Imus that threatens them with violence. You are just beginning to see the white backlash over the racial discourse Sharpton and others are trying to frame knowing they have Hillary and Barak boxed in. Obama doesn’t serve the greater discourse by this, unless he hopes a more polarized climate will help him. That sounds like Rovian logic, doesn’t it? Obam can’t seem to take a stand on this political polarizing even though Republicans will have reason to sharpen their knives again to use on any Democratic administration in 2008 (the whole range of Left behavior since 2002). Wasn’t Obama appealing for the opposite kind of discourse?

Obama knows it is a tough fight to win the black vote here in New York. Can you imagine him going after the disrespectfulness of gansta rap? Please. Tell me how anyone can have Snoop Dog mascot major sponsorship of prime time events on network TV and sacrifice Imus in the name of young black women? Why does Obama have to say anything? The other candidates have and will. Republicans are loving this. Watch Hillary now on the stump. Obama must be more than marketed as the bridge between sides, but he is too calculating to make rap or even black on black crime an issue right now. Still, in order to win he must show us that he isn't beholden to just the black community when it comes to the causes of crime, failed education, poverty and racial tension in this country. He must advocate personal responsibility like Lieberman does, and the other candidates have and will.

Obama could actually quote some of the greatest political writings by any author, black or white, penned by Martin Luther King Jr.(some written in a prison cell) and ask the black community what values and self-respect their leadership is advocating. Does Obama consider the gap between MLK and Ludacris? Or will he want to portray himself as a black who has no clue who Ludacris is? He could question Farrakhan’s recent blather about wanting Iran to defeat our imperialism and attacks on Islam. Why? Because he is running on the image of being balanced, fair, not beholden to interest groups, principled and not pandering and most importantly, not afraid to speak honestly. That was what Simon was saying his “centrist” spin was. Obama pandered to both the antiwar and AIPAC. He plays one crowd and then another. Sure many do, but be honest; Obama's subliminal message is that he is centered, fair, honest, able to bridge the divide and raise the discourse. He doesn't have much of a record, a centrist voting record or a military resume. He has "character". Therefore, character must come forward and show how it can bridge to gap with a fair and balanced take on major issues. Believe it or not, this view comes from several of my friends WHO HAPPEN TO BE BLACK. They think he runs the risk of being neither black nor white enough instead of being black AND white.

Obama carry’s an added burden no doubt, but that is where my respect comes from. To be ordinary, makes him ordinary. To win, he must pave the wave by being extraordinary, like others before him and others yet to come.

Max, I think it's a shame that you are embracing the double standard here. I think you're missing MY point.

Sure, ugly as it is, Obama "needs" White America's votes. Fine. What i don't like is the way that some folks seem to be insisting ithat there is only way that Obama can get the black vote, and that the the way to do so is to pander to white fear by taking a prominent strand against violence and misogyny in hip-hop culture.

To repeat, there doesn't seem to be any reason for any of us to think that Obama is supportive of violence and misogyny in hip-hop culture. I don't think he needs a "sister souljah moment" (itself an embarssing phrase for white folks to blithely toss off, IMO) because I have no reason to think he condones violence or misogyny.

And what's especially disgusting is that you're actually helping to further the guilt by association meme by suggesting that Obama is in Al Sharpton's pocket. Why help tighten the cultural vicse by helping to orchestrate the cultural perspective so that some white folks will actually feel that they are entitled to demand that Barack Obama needs to throw Al Sharpton under the bus to deserve their white vote?

My own mileage is that I am QUITE comfortable with Obama's statements, and the folks who aren't either have an agenda or have bought into the framing of the folks with agendas. Two camps of those, white folks who are prone to falling for a plausible reason not to vote for him, and the black folks who are adversarial about culture, and want to remain apologist about their culture because they don't think white folks deserve the right to criticize it.

Got it in one--if you disagree with Bryan's take you're a white racist employing double standards. If you think the majority of African Americans don't embrace gangsta culture but condmen it, you're a white racist employing double standards.

Thank you for clearing that up, Bryan.

Boy, somebody got up on the wrong side of bed. :-) I started out by saying you're usually right, but I guess that didn't buy me any grace.

Tully, you may be right on pragmatics that Obama NEEDS a Sister Souljah moment.

I hope he doesn't need it. And if he does need it, I think it's as much a reflection on us white folks as it is on Obama. He hasn't done anything to associate himself with that culture, so I don't believe folks should be saying he ought to be singled out and required to disavow it. Since there's no reason to think he approves of it, why do we need to check?

Why do we feel the need to check? What reason does he give us to doubt that he is unattracted to misogyny? I keep asking that, no one feels like answering. Who framing feels to

It's feels to me like a lot like you think Obama has to prove he stopped beating his wife. But hey, your mileage.

For everyone else, I flatly deny saying or meaning anything like what Tully describes. For example, I don't recall saying anything at all here about what the majority view of black folks is in regard to gangsta culture, so I'm mystified why Tully is claiming that I've spoken to this.

If you think the majority of African Americans don't embrace gangsta culture but condmen it, you're a white racist

Azfincta sez wot? Where'd THAT come from? I don't really know for sure what the majority view of black Americans is when it comes to gangsta culture. Never seen or done a poll, all I have is my personal guess. If the majority view is one of condemnation when it comes to misogyny, violence, and so on, that seems like a good thing to me. I sure assume that most black folks don't condone violence, narcissism, greed, and misogyny. And I'm pretty sure it doesn't make me or anyone else a racist to think so.

As an aside, I do know that many black folks are very irritated by the penchant of some white folks for ignorantly conflating all of hip-hop exclusively with the negative aspects of gangsta culture. Lauryn Hill and the Roots are a couple artists who have been known to transmit a positive message fro time to time, and too many white boomers are painfully ignorant of this in their rush to despise "rap" and its entire culture as a monolith.

So I'm stickin to ma guns. You'll still sit next to me on the whiskey tour, right? :-)

He might sit next to you, but only while farting.

There's lots of positive hip-hop. It's just not very successful commercially. College radio is a good source for the curious.

Read the next new post up Bryan.

Black folks are not being served by Sharpton and Jesse. Because of the "power group" of artists, sports, corporations and neoliberal leadership, the "street" promotes or ignores anything keeping the rapper/gangstas from yanking in the big bucks.

Most liberal folks aren't being served by present liberal leadership as they would presently steer us rather aimlessly past their targeted election if they could. Imagine global warming and antiwar as setting both environmental policy and foreign policy.

Black folks WERE being served by MLK and MX who died trying. Present Black leadership has made a deal with liberals, sports and media to focus on the REAL enemy. Today it is Imus. Yesterday it was lurking at Duke. Even Mr. Duke avoids their radar when he's in Tehran denying the Holocaust.

So if Obama wants to really identify with BOTH white outrage over the NEW DEAL between black leadership and neoliberal leadership (see double standard) AND identify with real opposition to black victimization (what black folks should fight) through this duplicity and failure (by elite groups of blacks and whites), then the ONLY chess move is to stand WITH BLACKS and WHITES and put himself center. How ironic. Biologically, you couldn't get more centered than Obama. What is needed is honesty about the real facts and that would make him more centrist, ring truer, sounder on policy and more PASSIONATE AND BALANCED with regard to race and civility, instead of panderingly neoliberal and tactically accepting of the antiwar and the AL & Sharpton Show, let alone the media and recording business which loves him. Obama should be an icon of the center which determined the last election, instead of this strange ride he's on.

Edwards was more balanced about Imus, than Obama. Hillary usually waits some cycles before she makes her counterstroke.

I don't think there is any other way for Obama than being an extraordinary bridge between normal liberal sentiment and normal conservatives. He can hold more liberal policy solutions, but not forsake the common ground, or mutual fairness. This is what made Powell a winnable Black Candidate.

There is only one road for someone such as Obama and a difficult course. I'm not saying he has crashed or that his ideals are all suspect, but remember the hour when you start saying, "don't mind, once Obama becomes President he'll change back to something he isn't proving right now he ever was". We have had leaps of faith before and we can't afford another leap into stupidty. Liberalism may not survive it.

So if Obama wants to really identify with BOTH white outrage over the NEW DEAL between black leadership and neoliberal leadership (see double standard) AND identify with real opposition to black victimization (what black folks should fight) through this duplicity and failure (by elite groups of blacks and whites), then the ONLY chess move is to stand WITH BLACKS and WHITES and put himself center.

I'm not sure just what you mean here, Max, but it still sounds like you are saying that the requirement for Obama is that, as the black candidate, he must explicitly define himself in relation to white folks' understanding of Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson.

And in the "getting to know you" sense, I suppose that's indeed true. All I can really add is that I feel he deserves credit for doing this all along through his life and his actions. It seems like a trap to me that Obama has to come up with a perfect position in regard to the rest of black culture. As we all know, black culture is not in fact a monolith. Granted, a trite thing to say, but I feel the discussion merits its repetition.

I feel that Obama deserves to be considered for the Presidency as an individual based on his accomplishments and policy goals, as opposed to how he defines himself as a black person in regard to white folks' impressions about black culture.

And yeah Tully, I know. Deserve's got nothing to do with it. I'm just saying. I'm speaking about how I think his candidacy deserves to be treated, with some sense of idealism. Guilty.

In point of fact, it's quite clear that folks will conspire (not wittingly, just by feeling their way) to cast him first and foremost as "the black guy" with all that entails. It's a dominant rut. Pragmatically speaking, Obams has no choice but to navigate through it. But I do hope that many of us can rise above that perspective from time to time.

Just one more thing. I know "racism" is a loaded term, and I apologize if my use of the term ruffled anyone's feathers. I distinguish between capital R Racism where folks viscerally despise others on no more than the basis of skin color. The kind of racism I was talking about above is the small r kind, where our distrust and fear of those different from us who who we don't know that much about leads us into ruts. I think we all are occasionally guilty of generalizing about unfamiliar cultures on the basis of crappy samples, and to my thinking that's a small R form of racism. I don't say its especially evil, and it's quite different from capital R racism. These sorts of small R racist actions are really part of human nature. People are tribal. But it probably would have been wise if I had chosen a less loaded term or better explained my thinking upfront.

Hip-Hop-Crisy is now what MSNBC is calling the backlash. I do not think I have to be black to understand what BLACK journalists say themselves are the causes for the many of the greatest problems facing their community. MLK asked me to ignore the color of one's skin. From what I have learned from my friends is that serious issues face the black community from within and the negative aspects of corporate-amplified gangsta rap and film is a big one given their street cred. and influence on black culture. Are you telling me that a serious black leader of depth like MLK, wouldn't be focused on drugs, black on black crime, the content of character, fatherless homes, gangsta culture, felonious sports behavior and the failure of present black and liberal leadership? To stand up, like numerous black bloggers and agree IS speaking to the greater black interests defined by them, not me. Its time they seek real solutions instead of sacrificial firings. Spike and Woopi go on air and say they don't want to discuss any "double standard. What? Don't you see what's going on? Maher doesn't care if there' a double standard. This isn’t going away, is it?

So Obama should stand up against all forms of racism, but also the important internals victimizing the black community amplified by a deal between media, neoliberal leadership and the Al and Jesse Show. I exclude Chapelle because I believe he is satirizing to mock black and white behavior in order to get us to see our "hip"ocracy. Remember also, Obama started his campaign with the association to Lincoln and King Jr. He set a higher bar as part of his mystique.

In appealing to the White community, he should stand with them too and reject both conservative extremism (people ARE getting a bit tired of it) and the obvious double standard on the Left which is endangering society at large by exploiting the tensions to drive political advantage. They do this “forcing” from climate science to foreign policy. You're talking to someone fairly liberal here. I don’t think I’m being unfair BK. This is what I meant in my last post.

Instead of skirting the issue in Sharpton's favor and NOT speaking about what is really threatening the black community (its not Imus), he could talk directly and honestly about the real issues and go directly to the people instead of playing it safe and allowing the usual players to frame the discourse.

Instead of pandering to the white liberal establishment and allowing them to call the shots, he can instead talk directly to the whole white community (liberal and conservative) and explain why this double standard and the politics of polarization on both sides is self-defeating as a nation. Wasn't that the promise? Obama the peacemaker has been coopted by those on the Left who want political warfare instead of the real kind.

My interest in Obama was stirred by the resume, which suggests he could be the right guy at the right time in our history to bring us together. He would have to survive Tully and Raf, you and Pat, Scoot and Chris and others to fit that center bill. He could do it. I thought he would. He can be Black AND White, centrist AND Liberal. It doesn't mean he has to give up all his more liberal solutions and become a part-time conservative, just that he must subject his views to the same fair and debated examination the above people would quiz anybody. Does that explain my garbled reply?

Read Crime Mob's lyrics, which major media publications gave sterling reviews. We’re talking the NYT and the LAT. This isn't a debate about free speech, its about “acceptability" and the essential requirements of a civilized debate and conduct, based on facts, not ideology. Wasn't that what Obama was bringing to the field? That is why I think he should really serve the black community AND the greater community, instead of skirting the black community and leaving the rest to wonder where he stands and who he serves. The media, corporations, Whoopi and Spike, Geffen or Jackson? I'm looking for the content of his character in the face of many powerful pressures and obstacles. He needs to become the Alpha Dog, not a novice tactician. Unfortunately, that IS what it will take, for an Obama to rise above this mess and change the direction. He can't just re-define himself after the neoliberals get him elected ( and that's not a given). Bill is an Alpha Dog and so was Reagan.

Crime Mob's take

"at the end of the day, its just entertainment".

Snoop Dog weighs in

Seems a bit dead here. I hope I didn't shoot ya all bitches dead.

Back to reality....

Hillary and Rap I hear Obama might pick West. Now that is a better move than Snoop Dog. I hear RNC is thinking 50 cents.

Al appeared this morning on Fox. Weak apology for the Duke students after much arguing (no retraction –hey, no apology from white people still thinking OJ murdered his wife) and no admission Al’s fury has NOT been directed at rap like Imus. He blames media for not pushing his efforts against rap the way they pushed for firing Imus. Huh?

I don't want to drag this thread out. This was about Obama's burden. This issue is not over and I will continue to argue that Obama's uniqueness and promise rests on his being able to send a new message that bridges the sides, resists pandering, present realistic, honest and detailed policies. If, at the end of the day, he is no better than his competition, his luster will vanish and his street cred with me will fade.

Time for Alpha Dog Obama…….

Ex post facto profile in, well, something.

Tom Maguire has some thoughts.

Think of the irony: Geffen certainly must know much of the rapper rage is against homosexuals. And Obama certainly knows the clout Geffen has. Silence is platinum.

Obama's remarks which amount to "we're all to blame" (we're all Imus) somehow leads nowhere as a presidential slogan. I'm not excusing Hillary or Edwards, but in the sense of profiles in courage, Obama is not writing the next chapter with those remarks. We are not all Imus and the issue is about condoning the "acceptability" of garbage, instead of a cynical hiding behind free speech.

At least Al did object to an Oscar award going to a rapper "in question". How many issues can you duck to become President? -Learning from McCain's situation, maybe all of them? Or just the ones that will get you in trouble.