Centerfield

This is as good a place and time as any to bring this up. Who else is just a wee bit agnostic on the notion that the job Guiliani did in the aftermath of 9/11 merits absolute canonization?

Let me be upfront. I have nothing AT ALL to say in disparagement of how he performed. Nothing. He showed himself to be a competent manager and a decent human being. Great. But does that make him a combination of Superman and Ghandi, or whatever?

I can't help but recall a past MA governor showing up repeatedly on TV during and in the aftermath of a huge blizzard, wearing a turtleneck, rolling his sleeves up to get things done, and making a bunch of very solid, sensible, and necessary decisions and orderes. He showed up and did everything we needed when a crippled state was looking for leadership.

For the record, who was that guy? Mike Dukakis.

I don't bring this story up to compare Guiliani to Dukakis. No point in that. I'm simply suggesting that if you are a compassionate and competent person cast into a leadership role under extraordinary circumstances and you do your job, there's something of an inflated halo effect.

Under normal circumstances, opponents pore over the minutiae of every decision and look for things to cast in a negative light. But the 9/12+ era was a brief period of extraordinary unity when the political dynamic was fundamentally different. (This didn't last, of course.) Speaking cynically, such a moment is an extraordinary opportunity for a politician, a tremendous role to have the fortune to play.

Now many folks yearn viscerally for that feeling of unity and sensibility under the competent and compassionate eye of America's dad, Rudy G. Will we get a holy reprise, or be disappointed to find he's quite human and frail just as we are? Your mileage.

I would argue without 9/11 Giuliani still has had more success as an executive than anyone else. Sure he did it when the country was in a good place but his accomplishments before September 11th, cutting crime, turning the city schools as well as CUNY around, standing up to interests that had been smothering the Big Apple for a long time, cutting budgets and taxes at the same time, are quite impressive. And remember, he did what he did in New York after everybody else said it was impossible. Sure 9/11 helps, and yes, there is somewhat of a halo effect, but some of us have been heaping praise on Rudy for a long time; not because of one event, but because of continuous successes as a government manager over an eight year period.

Yup, I basically agree with that. I like the guy, he's OK with me. I'm just a little tired of whole "he was such a good daddy on 9/12" thing.

But what do you imagine his huge mandate for change would be? From what current policies to what fundamentally different ones?

Brian, I think, is closer to the truth. As a New Yorker, I have been exposed to many journalistic explorations into Giuliani mythology concerning his actual track record as a prosecutor. Anyone want to make the case about his success? Hyper inflated to say the least.

As far as 9/11, this city was woefully unprepared and remember, there was WTC 1. Did Giuliani learn from that one? His primary claim to fame concerns the drop in crime. I give him credit, but that is a matter of allocation which his predecessor failed to adjust. There were also quite a bit of public v police issues and Giuliani was quite dismissive. He was the decider. Humility has been a post 9/11 acquisition.

I am pleased to see a Giuliani try a run at the nomination, given his domestic positions while talking tough about terror. He certainly understands the complexity of big cities.

On another note, under Giuliani NYC slid further into a rich-person's play ground as rent stabilization was weakened and neighborhoods gave way to housing for the wealthy and corporate buildings. His judgment picking associates, his marital problems, his corporate re-development of Times Square into Disney Land leaves much to be desired. His quest to close porn and stripper bars was ruled a bit unconstitutional and drove merchants into Middle Class neighborhoods. He was a bit more conservative than the denizens of NYC, though Dinkins was seen as a failure. People should not forgot how heated politics was in NYC before 9/11. It is funny to see such high favorability ratings now. Obama and Giuliani have some tough climbs to the nomination. Giuliani combines moderate conservatives, moderate Liberals, and Hawks with some eloquent speech. He responded far better to 9/11 than Bush did, and I see no clear reason why he is less qualified to run than most others. He supported Cuomo against Pataki which requires some balls and you’ve got to love that, though Pataki retaliated against the city in a number of vengeful ways.

I think McCain's numbers are hanging on Iraq. Romney is just not very loved. The picture is forming and Giuliani's hope is to convince Republicans, he has a better chance of winning the election than any other Democrat while staying strong in the war against Islamist extremists. .

Just being competent in doing an executive job in the midst of a disaster does get a halo effect. But there are lots of disasters to go around at the moment. And none of the opponents have a similar track record to show -- unless Romney had some excitements to cope with while he was governor that I simply haven't heard about, being on the far side of the country. So even discounting the halo, it's an edge.

I'm still hanging on to my prediction of '08 coming down to a redux of the Clinton v Giuliani race terminated early due to Giuliani's cancer.

Jon,
For New Yorkers, that would be a pay per view.

But what do you imagine his huge mandate for change would be?

That is why I say I am still uncommitted... We don't really know the answer to that because to this point we have heard more about what Rudy has done rather than what he would do. Furthermore, what I would define as being the right way to go about it would be to go beyond typical Republican economic talking points such as cutting taxes, reducing government, privatizing Social Security, etc., etc. My thought is that Rudy will go outside of the box, because he always has, but the road to the GOP nomination is a tough one. Becuase of his stance on social issues I fear that he will not thing big on economic and fiscal issues. In that sense he will ruin his change to win big in the general election, which I think he is capable of.

I would love to see Rudy-Obama for one reason... The experts inside the beltway would hate it. The establishment wants McCain versus Hillary, and although I like both, I am not sure what new would be brought to the debate if they each won the nomination of their party. Don't take this as I am not voting for McCain in the primary or supporting his candidacy, because I very well may end up doing so over Giuliani. There is nobody better on Iraq at this point then McCain IMO.

His judgment picking associates

I don't know how that would play politically, but for me that is a very severe, and heavily underplayed, problem with Giuliani. What is even more problematic is his lack of appreciation for competence when it comes from someone who is a threat to steal the spotlight. To borrow Jack Welch's idea, a president has to be willing to build a team that would make him like like the dumbest person in the briefing room. I don't see Giuliani being like that.

Hmmm... His judgement picking associates? Aren't we just talking about one individual here? An individual whose service as the Police Chief, while later found to be problematic, at the time was considered a successful tenure? What about the countless positives that occured in regards to city policing during the Giuliani-era in New York before and after Kerik? You don't see Giuliani being like that? I do, because he has done it. His lack of appreciation for competence when it comes from someone who may steal the spotlight? Interesting, do you have a particular event in mind? Because it seems to me Giualiani has a long record of giving praise to the people who have worked around him. I am not saying you are wrong, but some examples would be helpful. He didn't govern New York on his own.

You're preaching to the choir here, Starbucks. We don't care about Rudy's divorce, gay roommates, view on abortion, dressing in drag, etc., but the GOP primary voters do. (In fact, in some wingnut circles, that's all they care about.) I just don't see them tossing all that baggage aside, no matter how much they care about 9/11.

Unless Rudy does a W, falls to his knees, and declares himself "born again", that is. ;-)

If Rudy somehow manages to win the nomination, there would undoubtedly be a third party challenge from the religious right that would guarantee election of a Democrat. He might win the nomination - McCain's support is a mile wide and an inch deep in the GOP. A large percentage of the base distrusts him. Romney is trying to appeal to the social conservatives and his flip flopping on abortion and gay rights will hurt him . Living in Florida, I know that many religious conservatives also distrust Mormonism - they regard it as a cult. A Mormon from Massachusetts who can be seen on video trying to outdo Ted Kennedy in supporting gay rights is not going to be the champion of the religious right. Given the softness of the Republican field and considering that the Republican primaries are winner take all for delegates, he MIGHT be able to do it. However, does anyone imagine that James Dobson and that crowd will accept a pro-choice, pro-gay rights candidate with a checkered marital history? He really did treat his second wife shabbily and that story will be trumpeted throughout the primaries. There is no way that the religious right will accept him - someone like Santorum or Gary Bauer will mount a third party challenge drawing enough of the GOP base to tilt the election to the Democrats.