Centerfield

We Americans dislike illegal immigrants but like the economic benefits they bring (i.e. cheaper construction costs.

And as history would suggest, we need to have some immigrant group to be against.

Yes, workplace enforcement makes sense but lets not fool ourselves into thinking companies are doing something that we, in some way, don't also want. In some ways this is similar to complaining about Wal-Mart why also complaining about the high cost of consumer goods.

Posted by: c3 at October 2, 2006 09:45 AM

If politicians wanted to take effective action instead of posturing for constituents, they would crack down on the employers. Instead of hiring thousands more border guards, we should hire thousands more workplace inspectors. We should have swift and significant fines on employers who hire illegals.

Dead on target. Every time INS tries to actually seriously enforce workplace rules, the phones in Congress start ringing with calls from angry (and locally influential) constituents, and then the INS offices become filled with the sound of Congresscritters of all stripes threatening dire consequences to the INS if they don't quit harrassing those poor local businesses....

The businesses have a bit of a point. Unless the enforcement is consistent and even-handed and national, those who try to play by the rules will get wiped out by those who don't.

So INS gets muzzled, leaving border enforcement as the only real line of defense. At many times the cost.

Posted by: Tully at October 2, 2006 10:03 AM

Or just raise the national minimum wage so that employers can't pay illeagles much less then it would take to get legals to do the jobs.

Posted by: Rick DeMent at October 2, 2006 10:23 AM

Except that many illegals work for less than minwage now. And would continue to take under the table cash.

Posted by: Tully at October 2, 2006 11:03 AM

Wouldn't raising the minimum wage cause more illegals to come looking for work?

Posted by: Oberon at October 2, 2006 11:37 AM

Part of what is so wonderful about illegal aliens is that all an employer's transactions can be, "under the table."

But I would think that the cries of border town consumers would blot out the cries of border town employers. When the voter's voice becomes hears on this things will change. It's just that Republicans have colluded with Democrats to keep this off the table. Another shining example of two-party, "democracy," at work.

Posted by: Cavalier829 at October 2, 2006 12:07 PM

If there's no anti-illegal enforcement at the workplace? Yep.

It would also raise the under-the-table cash labor rates, and drive more of the illegals into the underground labor markets and out of "aboveground" jobs, and it would certainly expand incentive to utilize the underground labor markets when possible.

Posted by: Tully at October 2, 2006 12:08 PM

Moving the illegals into the legal work force would change it so that they would be able to demand (at least) the mininimum wage and the same health and safety protections that American workers have. It would remove most of the incentives (cash, under the table, no squawking to pesky OSHA regulators) that employers currently have to hire illegals.

Here's an odd thought that just popped into my head. The defense for hiring illegals is that they're doing work Americans don't want to do. How about a slightly hire minimum wage required to employ immigrants? Enough more so that it would be cheaper to pay an American worker above the American minimum wage. That would also increase the amount of taxes paid by the (now) illegal immigrants.

Hmmm... I kind of like that. It would NEVER fly politically, but I bet it would go a long way to fixing at least some of the problems.

But my bottom line on my original point is this. Once you take away the understandable fear the immigrants have of the INS and being deported, they will themselves demand to be treated better and the perverse incentives the employers currently have to hire them will diminish.

Posted by: PatHMV at October 2, 2006 12:38 PM

Leaving aside that it aint going to happen, raising the MW would be an interesting experiment because it would put to the test the hypothesis that there are many jobs Americans aren't interested in doing.

Suppose we jacked up the minimum wage to $15 per hour. Would Americans flood to apply for jobs cleaning office toilets and vacuuming carpets on the overnight shift? Would summering college students flood the fields looking for jobs picking fruit? I'd really like to know.

One thing I'd take for granted is that any business that didn't HAVE to be here in the US would migrate ASAP. IT'd be a coup de grace to most of what remains of domestic manufacturing, wouldn't it?

Posted by: bk at October 2, 2006 02:43 PM

My simple answer to illegal immigration (making it easier to become a citizen) would also be fairly cheap. It should lower govt expenses because there'd be less administration per immigrant.

Surprisingly, it looks to me like it should be the best plan at keeping mean low-end labor rates up (am I missing something?), because all those citizens would be entitled to minimum wage, OSHA, and other legal protections. And they'd assume rather more of their share of the tax burden.

Posted by: Jon Kay at October 2, 2006 03:54 PM

I guess higher labor rates mean slightly higher prices, too.

Posted by: Jon Kay at October 2, 2006 04:00 PM

I'm with you, Jon. But I would add that one requirement of citizenship has be to learn English. We don't do well as a bilingual society. Even a country as advanced as Canada suffers real strife because it is multi-lingual, even though both languages have been used through its entire history, for the most part.

If you want to come here to melt into the pot, I'm happy to have you. But if you come here and demand that WE change in the process, no thank you.

Posted by: PatHMV at October 2, 2006 04:42 PM

Yep, Jon and Pat. In any case, Tully is right about more enforcement of labor and immigration laws. It is presently difficult to compete with contractors with illegals. I know first hand, and I don't like the way they are treated. They work very hard and often have little cash for medical needs.

If the Democrats take the House, immigration will take a different political turn from its present course. I noticed this a while back. The article discusses the mid-term strategies on immigration and the coming battlefront. If these predictions are right, I suspect that immigration reform or security fences will not make much progress until 2008. The article predicts an Iraq obsession if the House falls to Democrats

Will this be Monica in reverse? Gee....Woodward on Larry King tonight.

Posted by: Maxtrue at October 2, 2006 05:51 PM

Do we really want to fence in the 11 million illegals that are already here?

I don't know about anyone else, but I've never been asked for my passport when leaving the United States. I've never had to fill out a visa declaring my legal status when leaving the United States. Thus, I see no reason to assert that illegals are being fenced in - they can leave any time they like.

In general, though, I agree: this is a problem that isn't going to go away until the prosecutions of companies hiring illegals starts. When the board of [an unnamed producer of low-cost, low-quality poultry products] show up in a federal penitentiary, companies will start to take immigration status seriously. Where I part company with this premise is that I fully support building the fence, I just acknowledge that building it is a start, not a solution in itself.

Posted by: Simon at October 2, 2006 09:33 PM

Isn't there another side to the equation when you try to eliminate sub-minimum wages? How competitive can we be with our trading partners if all our workers are paid a decent wage? Although the sevices and products gained from illegal labor aren't made by US citizens they are still made in the US. The cheaper "we" can make things the more advantage to "us".

Posted by: Dennis at October 2, 2006 10:49 PM

TYSON. TYSON TYSON TYSON TYSON TYSON.

Just to be clear, Simon.

Posted by: Tully at October 3, 2006 01:10 AM

illegal immigrants with jobs are the least of my concerns, I agree with Jon, let them become citizens. I like the border fence idea because keeping the criminals and drugs out is much more important than harrassing someone who is here for a job.

Posted by: Bernie at October 3, 2006 08:37 AM

Simon;

Where I part company with this premise is that I fully support building the fence, I just acknowledge that building it is a start, not a solution in itself.

Where do see it ending?

Posted by: c3 at October 4, 2006 03:13 PM

Living near the AZ-Mexico border, I have a slightly different take on the issue of illegal immigration. First of all, I don't believe in rewarding illegal actions or behavior. Second, the strain on public services here is huge. We have lost several emergency rooms due to free services given to illegal aliens, who use a level 3 trauma center as a family physician. The Federal government reimburses only a few cents on the dollar, if ever. Educational levels have decreased with the number of non-English speakers flooding elementary and secondary school classrooms. Of course, there is no money for ESL classes, if indeed they work.

The magnet that draws illegals to the US has to be withdrawn. Fining and jailing employers, from the smallest restaurant that hires an illegal dishwasher and pays him less than the minimum wage and in cash to the large corporations must be the first step. Withdrawing all social benefits is the second. This means no free K-12 education, no instate tuition for illegals, no subsidized housing. Taxing home remittances. Currently, the second largest source of foreign currency sent to Mexico is by illegal aliens. $30 billion dollars a year is a lot of money and if these free (Thank you, Wells-Fargo and Bank of America) money transfers were taxed at 30%, it would force the Mexican government, that cheerfully sends its surplus population to the US, to address some of its structural problems.

Enforcing the law would go a long way to stopping illegal migration. If illegals were required to carry auto insurance, not pack 15 people in a one bedroom apartment, be deported immediately for felony crimes, the US would not be as an attractive place. As it is, illegals are given a pass and local/state laws are not enforced because immigration is a Federal issue. The sucker citizens are forced to take up the slack.

Finally, stop granting US citizenship to children of illegals born in this country. Copper Queen Hospital in Bisbee, Arizona, finally stopped deliveries when over 90% of their clientele were illegal mothers who wanted to deliver their baby in a US hospital, knowing that the baby would be granted automatic citizenship, be enrolled in Medicaid and make the whole family eligible for WIC and subsidized housing. There has been a long standing pattern of abuse by illegals.

I have a major problem with a system that rewards lawbreakers while our own citizens cannot receive free healthcare and watch their wages be depressed by people who will work for practically nothing.

Posted by: Blondell at October 5, 2006 01:15 PM