Centerfield

I'm no Kos fan, but he's more than a "flash in the pan twit." The twit part is debatable, but he speaks for a big chunk of the Democratic Party, possibly a plurality.

Sometimes the grown-ups lose control of the party. 1972 was one and we're on the verge of another. Bill Clinton, as much as folks on the right love to hate him, is one of the grown-ups, at least on policy and politics.

Audacity? Hubris is more like it. For the most part, the debate over the soul of the Democratic party has been settled. Clintonism beats Kos-ism by a mile, and it drives Moulitsas crazy. Mark is right though, Kos gets no support from me, but he is no mere "flash in the pan."

Naw, that strain of Dem leftism has been around for four decades now. Hardly a flash.

Mark, Tully and Rafique:

Did not Rush Limbaugh speak for a majority of Republicans... And what significant roll is he playing now? Rush lacked discipline and it caught up with him, and so does Markos, and it will catch up with him also.

Did not Rush Limbaugh speak for a majority of Republicans

A majority? Not to my knowledge, and I sincerely doubt Kos does either. But I pretty much agree with your conclusion.

With both Rush and Kos, it's important to distinguish between the symptom and the syndrome. Rush and Kos are symptoms.

you call this shit "Centrist"??

Democratic primary voters woke up and smelled the rest of the country laughing at them over Howard Dean

It could just as well have happened as a result of Dean's mudfest with Gephardt, with the beneficiaries being those who were above the fray. As much as I or anyone else on this list would like for the moderate wing of the Democratic party to be ascendant, that does not make it so.

billie, I would say that yes, denouncing the fringes is centrist. Backing Bill Clinton over Kos and Rush is centrist. "Centrist" is not a synonym for "ambivalent".

Billie wants us all to agree that the only possible centrism is agreeing with him--even though Billie hasn't bothered to enlighten us on what centrism is.

Another Pauline Kael* AOL drive-by "centrist." Billie, do you know how many of you we've seen?

[*--"I can't believe Nixon got elected. Nobody I know voted for him." Attributed to Pauline Kael, former New Yorker film critic]

Did not Rush Limbaugh speak for a majority of Republicans... And what significant roll is he playing now? Rush lacked discipline and it caught up with him, and so does Markos, and it will catch up with him also.

There's a difference between Rush and Kos, even though they might seem to be analogs of each other; among folks in the Blogosphere, they'd have roughly equal followings in their respective sides of the aisle.

Rush is a radio personality who appeals to millions of conservatives who've never read a blog, while Kos is primarily known only to the political cognesenti; just about everyone knows who Rush is, even if only by reputation, but Kos would be lucky to crack 5% in a general-public name-recoginition poll.

Also, Rush is more of an idea guy than a candidate-backing guy; Kos' MO is to get behind particular candidates and raise money for them. Rush may have more influence over grassroots conservative thought, but Kos has more influence over grassroots liberal money.

Also, Rush is more of an idea guy than a candidate-backing guy; Kos' MO is to get behind particular candidates and raise money for them. Rush may have more influence over grassroots conservative thought, but Kos has more influence over grassroots liberal money.

Good analysis Mark, but what is the Kos record again? Look, I am not trying to down play what the man has accomplished and I obviously welcome internet activism. I just don't think he is important enough to get the attention that is currently being heaped upon him at the present time.

Having Moutsilas face-off against the ex-PRESIDENT on television is certainly a, "payraise," for Moutsilas.

You'd have to get someone like McGovern or Hart or someone like that to find an equal. Not even Dean is quite on par.

Interesting that the Prez is coming out of hiding to make comment. I thought, "Ex Prez's," didn't do that.

Am I the only one who thinks having Bill around is going to remind people of what they WON'T be getting if Hillary wins?

Regarding Lieberman, I get all the apprehension regarding the demise of the DLC within the party, but Joe's hedging of bets is almost certainly the reason he'll lose there. It's one thing to call in your debts, another to ask for a do-over afterwards should you lose, and to inform people beforehand that's the case. It is a bit pretensious.

By the way, it's kind of hard to compare Kos to Rush, if only because it's like comparing Apples to Oranges. Neo-Cons choose their icons differently than Deaniacs do.

For one thing, Talk-radio isn't the venue of choice for the Left. They'd rather attend a sit-in. I suppose it's like talking to God, and the Left just doesn't believe in God. At least, not in the same way.

Am I the only one who thinks having Bill around is going to remind people of what they WON'T be getting if Hillary wins?

Well, if your point is that Hillary Clinton doesn't bring the "charismatic compromiser" gene to the table, well that's really indisputable. Hllary can come a cross as stern, and is not comparably charismatic. And for whatever reason she's perceived as (and so will be pigeionholed by her opponents as) more left and less of a compromiser.

But leaving aside whether or not that's true (FWIW, I don't think it's especially true), let's think about what we will or won't get Williewise if Hillary is elected President. To my knowledge, Hillary has never suggested that Bill will have no role. I think it's reasonable to expect that, one way or the other, Hillary will suggest that Bill will be part of her team, at the very least as a sort of consigliere. Perhaps she'll even suggest that Bill have an important role is some particular policy area, probably one where his presence shores up a perceived weakness of hers and adds votes from a portion of the electorate where he's struggling.

So far from it being likely that we WON'T get Bill Clinton if we elect Hillary, I think it's almost a given that electing Hillary will mean more Bill, possibly in a prominent role. Obviously, not as President. But let's suppose Hillary gets elected President. Isn't there about a 99% chance that the subsequent Hillary Derangement Syndrome coming from the GOP wings casts Bill Clinton in the Karl Rove evil genius role, seeing his fingerprints on all vexing postions Hillary takes, and so on and so forth?

Ho about some guesses. Might Bill be named secretary of state, ambassador to the UN or some other important nation, or "immigration czar?" Couldn't an immigration czar basically act as a fulltime admin campaigner, recruiting immigrant votes on Mondayd, Wednesdayd, and Fridaya, while charismtaically mouthing vague poasitive platitudes to a receptive audience of blue collar workers. I gotta tell you, I can already see the purple GOP faces resulting from Bill having a role in a Clinton admin. I see such folk lined up as far as the eye can see, opening up old cans of worms, throwing the contents on the walls, unaccountably getting angrier and angrier as the contents of these old cans of worms mostly don't stick just like they mostly didn't stick the first time.

Should this come to pass, I'll laugh at the resulting petard hoistage, but I expect my laughs will get blank expressions among the partisans.

Yeah, I think you're kind of dreaming on this one BK.

Bill can't NOT be the center of attention, and I think Americans want the A-lister to be the President, not the Veep or someone else in the Administration. I know it's a bit of a double-standard, but I think Bill will make her look like an amateur. Someone who can't pull it off.

A better Centrist would be someone like Edwards or Warner (D-VA), but I think too many Dems probably want to break another barrier than win.

I won't count Hillary out, but the GOP will have to implode like it did in the 90's in order for her to win. Not for her sake, but I hope that it does.

Having Moutsilas face-off against the ex-PRESIDENT on television is certainly a, "payraise," for Moutsilas.

My point exactly... In the grand scheme of things he is pretty small. From my point of view Markos Moulitsas has a place at the table because the Democrats are allowing him to have one. It is like James Carville said regarding Howard Dean's victory in the party chair race. Where is the back room politics? Why aren't those who truly influence the direction of party not shutting down the fringe. This is the kind of discipline that IMO costs Democrats and leads to Republican gains. Say what you want about the conservative nature of George W. Bush, he has effectively taken Pat Robertson, Gary Bauer, and James Dobson out of the political process of the Republican Party.

Cav i agree with many others here that Hillary's prospects, should she garner the dem nom, will depend entirely upon who she faces. I think she cleans the clock of a real so-con, but loses to someone like McCain or Giuliani.

Bill can't NOT be the center of attention, and I think Americans want the A-lister to be the President, not the Veep or someone else in the Administration. I know it's a bit of a double-standard, but I think Bill will make her look like an amateur. Someone who can't pull it off.

I think this misunderestimates Bill Clinton. Your description MUST logically imply that Clinton is not a good enough politician to understand the dynamic you describe. If Clinton craves the spotlight as you say, then he has to notice that he'll get a better and longer spotlight if he finds a way to help Hillary win. My money is on him finding that way. Do you honestly think that Bill Clinton is incapable of convincing people that Hillary Clinton is part mother Theresa, part Rosie the Riveter, part Margaret Thatcher, and part John F Kennedy?

Do you really think that Bill Clinton is incapable of looking right in the camera and turning on a light sprinkle of tear jets while confessing to his infidelities and crediting Hillary with the patience of job, the wisdom of Solomon, etc, etc, etc. While he takes on the repsonsibility for the damage done to the relationship. When he does this, do you think that America won't be eating out of his hand, and won't look at Hillary in a new light? It's almost like you've never read a script before. It's right there for the creative to write.

Mathew,

I think it's a stretch to say that Robertson, Bauer, & Dobson are OUT of the PROCESS, rather than safely behind the scenes. After, Robertson ran for Prez. in '88 I think the RR got the measure of their own weakness in running up front and their incredible power in running behind the throne.

As for the Dems, I think the Nightline program is less of a party decision than that of a failing network looking for a way to boost it's abysmal ratings. (I believe the last time I watched a "big 3," network program was the last episode of the West Wing.)

What's surprising is that the President would be cought dead on the same channel as Moutsilas, UNLESS it's a way to take Moutsilas DOWN a peg. THAT could be the answer to this conundrum.

BK,

I admire your commitment to the cause, but in case you haven't noticed, nationally, Dems don't clean clocks any more. The last one to do so was LBJ, and that's been awhile. Gratefully, neither has the GOP, though.

Yeah, I guess I'm not in with the, "others." I don't think it matters WHO she runs against, but rather HOW MANY. If it's a 3-way race she'll have an outside shot, but she'd have to find a way to NOT be the subject of the election. She'd have to be the SAFE candidate. At present, I don't think she can pull that off.

If you're saying that Bill would have the smarts to be nearly absent from the '08 campaign, I'd say I don't know their team could pull THAT off either. Maybe, but I think he'd be busting-at-the-seems by election night. They'll have to have the Secret Service sedate him to prevent him from giving the acceptance speech.

I don't think the relationship is the problem, either BK. I think the better Bill does, the worse Hillary looks.

I don't think America sees Hillary as a way to get Bill again. You might, but again, I think America wants the A-lister in the top job not as a prime minister.

As for speech-writing, I think in this age of spin and virtual-reality the political class overestimates it's ability to control the dynamic.

I think the better Bill does, the worse Hillary looks.

I think that's silly. I think an asset is an asset.

I don't think America sees Hillary as a way to get Bill again. You might,
Not what I'm saying. What I am saying is that if Hillary is smart she can take advantage of Bill to gain the votes of people who look fondly on the Clinton Presidency. most americans are probably not aware of any explicit desire to bring back Clinton, but this doesn't mean that Bill Clinton can't dredge up fond memories and GET people to have a positive nostalgic reaction.

I think America wants the A-lister in the top job not as a prime minister.

I think America is smart enough to understand that Bill Clinton can't be President again, and not so stupid to punish Hillary for this. My experience is that people will take what they can get.

I also don't think that Bill will get much spotlight. We'll see FAR more of Hillary. Bill's appearances will be judiciously chosen, and limited. He's the smart bomb.

We can agree to disagree though. As stated, I think you misunderestimate both Bill and Hillary if you think that the Clinton's will be unable to leverage Bill's 2 terms in office as an asset.

Perhaps, BK, perhaps.

Anyone hear what Kerry said today? Look and have a good laugh. I think a bolt from the Dig hit him in the head.

The comment about Hillary being overshadowed has been made months ago. I think the tactical situation has changed. The more the Democrats go off the deep end (again see Kerry’ remarks today about Israel as opposed to well known Clinton's line "he would die for Israel), Hillary being Bill's wife will count more than her lesser charisma. She could beat McCain if a Republican plank that opposes Stem Cell research, immigration reform, judicial review of intelligence operations, environmental issues etc, saddles him. Bubba knows where the fight is being the leader of the DLC. His support of Lieberman is a statement and I watched an interview years ago in which Clinton said that he would have sent troops into Iraq after a bit more failed diplomacy. He supported the notion that Saddam could not stay with the Status Quo leading to eventual threats. He agrees now with the Republican identified linkage between Syria, Iran and terrorists. He kicked out the Far Left during his eight years and is the most powerful Democratic leader. As I said before, only Bill can slap back the Kossaks. I predicted a week ago, Israel situation will force him to stand up. Democrats will not allow Kossaks to attack their icon.

My post on the open thread from Counterterrorism.com was exactly right. The Israelis are taking Hezbollah's capital with fierce fighting. Democrats say let the threat remain until the UN acts. LOL

Today:. Iran rejects the EU nuclear offer as "insulting" and Chavez is working hard to cement deep ties with Belarus. Who thinks Clinton does not see the game being played here. Democrats are making one mistake after another while parading polls that show them leading the Republicans. I think the polls are missing the bottom line. Which Party has the best view of the global situation? I assume one needs such a view to then create same policy. The Democrats still refuse to acknowledge the strategic situation, so who will Americans feel safer with come election time? What Party can win when Americans see the opposition hoping things get worse, to win on an anti-Bush plank? It is absurd.

Jews are not stupid and the Democrats should not take them for granted. Again, just listen to the remarks made by Kerry, a Democrat that 70% of the Jewish voters picked. This number is now in doubt.

Centrist? Well, if you take Kossaks for mainstream Liberals, I can understand how many Lefties who visit see this blog as Far Right. It speaks more about Left perception than reality itself. Remember, Clinton is a centrist and he would gladly "die for Israel". Lieberman has an 80% Liberal rating. Let’s see if Bill will fight for the Party he helped to bring out of the darkness, before it encounters failed expectations for the third straight time.

Much as I disliked him Bill Clinton was an incredibly smart politician with great charisma and personnel magnatism.

Much as I dislike her, Hillary Clinton is an incredibly smart politician. But she lacks Bill's charisma and magnatism....and that's going to be a big problem for her. Unfortunately for her....that's the one thing you can't fake with smarts or good handlers. Either you've got charisma or you don't.

It's the Keanu Reeves syndrome. The guys been in some great movies and had some brilliant lines written for him.... but it's still painfully apparent that he can't act. It's apparent enough when he's on screen by himself...but put him next to a Peter O'Toole or an Alec Guinness and it'll smack you in the face.... and that's Hillary's dilemma with Bill. It's impossible not to notice the charisma differential.... if he gets out in front of the cameras for her.

As far as Bill not getting too much spotlight.... while I think they are smart and polished enough to realize HOW to do it.... I'm not sure Bill will be able to restrain himself from doing it.... and it's not like the media won't be egging him on every inch of the way.

Clinton works well in the spotlight when there is an issue most Americans can agree on or during a fierce partisan fight between parties when he believes he represents the high road and has significant backing. Despite the health concerns, the Clintons didn't really campaign for Kerry. Why support a candidate still distancing himself from basic charisma, economic policy 101 and centrist foreign policy? Let the Democrats lose and then plan a Democratic come back for Hillary. That was my read.

Instead, New Media blames Dibold for the loss, group stupidity for the polls and a Republican Big Brother as the world's gravest threat. If Democratic leadership can't draw a line not to cross with Kossak insurgents, I doubt they could handle Hezbollah. It is grandstanding, plan and simple. If Clinton can inject this Lamont/Kerry endorsed absurdity into the Lieberman contest, he can pave the way for Hillary while helping his friend Joe. If he comes merely to endorse Lieberman, avoid Lamont’s positions and fails to speak on the Democratic civil war, then he will fail to do either.

I await the transcripts...

Kerry's remark today

some news McCain and Lieberman probably keep up with

Can you imagine Israel's position with a sanctionless Saddam? And Kossaks HATE Lieberman for his support of the Iraq invasion. The split in the Democratic Party is growing. And Rove thought he'd have to work over-time.

Mike Papantonio was the Kerry advocate who claimed Israel had killed 500,000 in the last eleven days and Tucker who missed the slip of Mike's tongue. I wonder if Franken supports this dribble despite the same transmission point.

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Mathew,

I wouldn't give W too much credit against Robertson, et al. After all, he's a President's son-Governor of Texas with four years experience (and more money than God) against never elected televangelists who are considered extreme even inside their own party. It's sort of like giving Godzilla credit for stomping Tokoyo.

Then again, I wouldn't give W much credit in any case. ;-)

Cengal,

Agreed on Reeves. He's Ok when he's basically playing himself, like "The Matrix", "Bill and Ted", etc. but make him stretch a bit, like "Dracula" or "Constantine" and he's lost.

Off topic--what's the deal with casting him as Constantine, anyway? How did a blond, Liverpudlian party animal in a trenchcoat become a dark, uptight, American suit?

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