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Fascinating to see Mitch McConnell in the anti- column. I now officially take him off my, "too foregone to matter," list and place him in the, "merely hopeless," category.

I think the Repub's would be in trouble if this passed. I've never witnessed a flag burning.

BUT I do see, very often, abuse of the flag. It is always by people that think they are celebrating the flag.

Today, I saw a lawn that had about 50 little flags along the street. More than a few of them were touching the ground. Their main large flag looked like it had been up for years, foot long taters on the end.

These flags are not taken down at night, but do not have a light on them.

These are the only people that will have problems with the law (if inacted).

Not to mention ribbon shaped flag magnets, etc.

Thankfully, we still have enough senators sensible enough to once again put to bed this predictable exercise. Bravo, Mitch McConnell, for standing up for principle.

I'm majorly disappointed with all the Dems who voted for this Amendment. Bayh, Landrieu, and others, you ought to be ashamed.

Assuming that the Annual Flag Amendment is intended to set up the following syllogism?:

Our soldiers die to protect the flag.
Senator X refused to protect the flag.
------------------------------------------------
Therefore, Senator X refused to protect what our soldiers die for?

begs the question, would anybody motivated to vote by that logic be voting for anybody but the GOP, anyway?

It may be a clever, if crass, strategy. But is it an effective one? Might not there be an equal or larger number of on-the-fence voters so turned off by the cynicism of what they viewed as a plot that it would change their vote in reaction?

I always liked the "PI" advice; "You're allowed to wear the flag, but you have to take it off at sunset."

LOL. Sure livens up those drunken patriotic toga parties when sunset rolls around. Two thumbs up.

The fact that the Flag Burning Amendment suffered a much deserved defeat in the Senate might be comforting to those of us who value freedom of speech and property rights. However, I think it is a dark day in our nation's history when nearly two thirds of the Senate shows their "appreciation" of the American flag while trampling on the very values that it represents.

Brian already pointed out who voted against the Amendment, but I think it bears mentioning who voted FOR it. Here is the "Using the Flag to Trample the Constitution" Hall of Shame:

Alexander (R-TN)
Allard (R-CO)
Allen (R-VA)
Baucus (D-MT)
Bayh (D-IN)
Bond (R-MO)
Brownback (R-KS)
Bunning (R-KY)
Burns (R-MT)
Burr (R-NC)
Chambliss (R-GA)
Coburn (R-OK)
Cochran (R-MS)
Coleman (R-MN)
Collins (R-ME)
Cornyn (R-TX)
Craig (R-ID)
Crapo (R-ID)
Dayton (D-MN)
DeMint (R-SC)
DeWine (R-OH)
Dole (R-NC)
Domenici (R-NM)
Ensign (R-NV)
Enzi (R-WY)
Feinstein (D-CA)
Frist (R-TN)
Graham (R-SC)
Grassley (R-IA)
Gregg (R-NH)
Hagel (R-NE)
Hatch (R-UT)
Hutchison (R-TX)
Inhofe (R-OK)
Isakson (R-GA)
Johnson (D-SD)
Kyl (R-AZ)
Landrieu (D-LA)
Lincoln (D-AR)
Lott (R-MS)
Lugar (R-IN)
Martinez (R-FL)
McCain (R-AZ)
Menendez (D-NJ)
Murkowski (R-AK)
Nelson (D-FL)
Nelson (D-NE)
Reid (D-NV)
Roberts (R-KS)
Rockefeller (D-WV)
Salazar (D-CO)
Santorum (R-PA)
Sessions (R-AL)
Shelby (R-AL)
Smith (R-OR)
Snowe (R-ME)
Specter (R-PA)
Stabenow (D-MI)
Stevens (R-AK)
Sununu (R-NH)
Talent (R-MO)
Thomas (R-WY)
Thune (R-SD)
Vitter (R-LA)
Voinovich (R-OH)
Warner (R-VA)

I'm not going to rehash my arguments against this amendment, as we had a pretty thorough debate (here and here) last year when a Flag Burning Amendment was passed in the House (a biennial right of passage for the House GOP).

My one minor gripe with your post, Brian, is your inclusion of Hillary Clinton and Bob Bennett on your list of Senators that "get it." I respectfully argue that this is not the case at all. While Hillary Clinton and Bob Bennett did in fact vote against this amendment (a decision which I agree with), it should be pointed out that these two Senators are both ardent supporters of flag burning laws. In fact, the two of them co-sponsored a flag-protection measure last year that would criminalize desecration of the United States flag. Hillary Clinton has been particularly slippery in her views on flag burning in that she has stated that while she doesn't support a constitutional ban, she does support federal legislation making it a crime to desecrate the flag. In explaining her views, she has compared flag-burning to cross-burning, which has also been made illegal (wrongly, in my view) under the reasoning that it is a violation of federal civil rights laws.

I think an argument could be made that Hillary Clinton's (and also Bob Bennett's) position on flag burning is even worse than the 34 Senators who voted for the Amendment. The fact of the matter is that laws against flag burning are unconstitional. If that were not the case, then there would be no reason to pass a flag burning amendment in the first place. However, Hillary Clinton does not acknowledge this fact. In her mind, Congress need not consider the Constitution when it comes to making laws that would criminalize the act of burning an American flag.

Don't let Hillary Clinton's vote fool you. Once again, she's pandering to both sides. When the time comes for her to campaign for president, she'll tell conservatives that she sympathizes with them on this issue, pointing our that she personally co-sponsored legislation that would criminalize the desecration of the flag, and then the very next day, she'll tell liberals that she's really on their side--that she stood with those who opposed the needless desecration of our Constitution.

The problem is, she's already shown her disrespect for the Constitution by attempting to pass flag burning legislation without going through the proper channels of amending the Constitution to make such a law constitutional.

I totally agree with nic. But, in fairness, what do you do when you know the opposition will smear you as some uber liberal, unpatriotic, man-hating, quasi-lesbian whore? No, Hilary isn't showing much principle in these matters. But, like any politician, she wants to win. She has been driven to this by her opponents.

What bothers me more is these conservatives that simply don't understand the principles of free speech. And since when have we had an epidemic of flag burning? Is flag abuse one of the major problems in the United States? But I guarantee that if this amendment passes, we will have an epidemic from people trying to prove a point. But then the right-wing nuts will be able to say it's those unpatriotic Democrat bastards.

Why would that piece of southern fashion be a problem under this amendment? After all, it's a Confederate flag. Desecrating that would still be fine, right? (Well, there are probably still some in the deep South who would worry more about the Confederate flag than about the American flag. But tough on them!) ;-)

Sigh. :-) WJ, Can't I EVER leave anything out, even the smallest detail? People wonder why my posts are so long, but every time I leave out even a tiny connection, someone brings it up.

OK, it would only (possibly) be presumed to be American flag desecration if it were a dress made from an American flag, not the stars and bars. I figured people could connect the dots from a picture of a dress made from a flag.

At least until someone argued that the confederate flag were ITSELF a desecration of the american flag since it mis-rendered an american flag to have 1 big red stripe, only 2 blue stripes, and an incorrect number of stars.

Since I've bothered to answer that, I''ll take the time to let everyone know that the dictionary meaning of desecrate is "to violate the sacredness of....

Notice that this also raises an establishment clause issue, since an anti-desecration law must by definition officially declare that which can't be desecrated to be sacred. So such an amendment would in fact establish a sacred religion of flag worship.

BTW Nic, I'm willing to accept allies of convenience. I'm very cynical on this, which is why I said "must have drawn the short straw." My gut says the vote itself has a host of voters of convenience on both sides, and that the senate is probably sure to get an accurate headcount before it proceeds. Sooner or later, I expect it may pass. I agree that HC has been a consistent parsel-tongue on this issue. So she certainly bears continued watching. Perhaps this is another object lesson on the virtues of continually comparing what they say to what they do.

I agree with Marc, too. HC can't get elected without wrapping herself in the flag, holding a bible, and serving apple pie while she supports the troops and kissses their babies. That's show biz.

Sooner or later, I expect it may pass.

Nah. That would deprive both sides of one of their favorite demogougin' tools.

But I will "wave my idiot flag" and note that speech that will cause or has as its purpose "imminent lawless action" (such as a inciting a riot) does NOT enjoy constitutional protection as "free speech." Whether it's burning a flag, or reading aloud from books of Rod McKuen poetry in crowded spaces.

(Don't forget to mention that worshipping the flag as superior to what it stands for is a clear form of idolatry.)

That's true Tully, but, as I know you realize, that's not the point of the amendment. It's simply punishing the act without regard to the effects. But, even at that, it's a slippery slope in the same way that hate crime legislation is because, short of someone saying, I want you to go out and kill someone, discerning motive is extremely hard to do.

Oh, would it count if the flag burner wanted to incite a crowd to do violence on him? Because that is a likely outcome. -:) Plus, would it count if you descreted an earlier version of the flag, say one with 48 stars? Or the original version from the Revolution? This would be great for lawyers.

Don't mistake my meaning, Marc. Just pointing out the hyperbole of both sides. Remember, I'm the guy who wants flag togas to come off at sundown at drunken patriotic bacchanalias. As long as I get invited. :-)

Is "imminent lawlessness" constrained to "other than the instigator?" Not that I"m aware of. I guess I'd say that talking yourself into imminent lawlessness isn't protected by free speech. We have a constitutional right to be stupid. It's the fiddlin' details that keep attorneys out of bankruptcy.

Brian, I actually did understand your point. And even agreed with it. I just thought it was amusing that the picture was an example of a DIFFERENT flag that some people (and some of the same people, I suspect) would get exercised over "desecrating."

P.S. And I don't really have a problem with your long posts either. But maybe that's just you and me.

I like long posts when there's meat in them. It's long pointless irrelevant ones that I skip.

Instead of flag burning, Congress should be looking at coal burning and carbon sequestering

The Republican run Congress is making me ill these days, you too?

Hey, I have no reason to burn a flag while it is legal. Maybe I will burn one on the steps of the state capitol building if it ever gets out of Congress and the state ratifies it.

Stupidity can only be answered with absuridty. This would probably rate up there with prohibition in idiotic amendments to the Constitution. It would, however, be an appropriate legacy for this do-nothing (useful) government we have.

I'm also sure that local fire codes trump Free Speech.

why is everyone having a cow over this amendment? It seems to me this is more of a boast for both sides of the issue than it is about what Americans stand for and believes in.

It seems to me this is more of a boast for both sides of the issue than it is about what Americans stand for and believes in.

Bingo. Why it's not passing. It would lose its usefullness as a rabble-rousing tool. And if it ever actually gains enough votes to pass--not just Congress but the required number of states--that by itself will be prime evidence that the issue has jumped the shark.

Not that I don't think Washington D.C. is capable of it, but do you really think there is a coordinated effort to have a vote on tis amendment and at the same time ensure that it fails? Which supporter of the amendment do you think voted against it to ensure defeat?

If you say McConnell, I actually might believe that. I'm just stumped by his vote on this.

As far as the actual voting, there was absolutely back room deals going on over who would vote which way. I did not get a chance to see the vote live. I would be willing to bet there were a lot of 'yea' votes that came in only after the requisite 'nay' votes had been cast. You don't come with one vote on an issue like this if there is not some back room dealings goign on. Most of it was known well before the speeches were penned. That is not unusual.

I don't think it was an issue of supporters voting against. It was the other way around. I think you had a lot of people who did not support it; but only voted for it once it was not possible for it to pass. A protective 'yea' to wrap themselves in the flag when they otherwise would not have.

What Jim said.

For most votes with high-public interest profiles, the leaders know the overall results far ahead of time, and won't let it come to a vote at all unless [a] they can win, or [b] they can convincingly lose in a way that serves other purposes, or [c] simply cannot stop it because of overwhelming public pressure. Contentious issues kept alive provide both base fuel and cover for other issues. Issues decided invite backlash, and provide NO base fuel, NO cover.

And the individual politicians will hold their votes and do some bargaining to sell them to the leaders. For a price. Chuck will vote YEA on bill A, if caucus leader Jenny lets him make a principled NAY vote against the party line on bill B without drawing any penalty. So caucus leader Jenny sits down and works the numbers to see how bad she really needs Chuck's vote. It's a large barter game.

Yes, this is how real elected bodies work. Not pretty. But the heart of pluralistic representative democracy is indeed a "capitalistic" barter market. Watch the national conventions and ask yourself why the Jesse Jacksons and such run time after time. They know they can't win, but they CAN pick up enough saleable power chips to cut some deals for themselves. And they do.

No, I know it isn't a very pretty process at all, however, I can't imagine that if they DID have the votes they wouldn't pass the thing.

There may indeed be a penalty suffered for having this in the Consititution, but I don't think most of its proponents see this at all.

"You're allowed to wear the flag, but you have to take it off at sunset."

...and in inclement weather.

Fascinating to see Mitch McConnell in the anti- column. I now officially take him off my, "too foregone to matter," list and place him in the, "merely hopeless," category.

If that's the case, then I want to know what on earth category you put Jim Bunning into?

...the dictionary meaning of desecrate is "to violate the sacredness of....

Yeah...um, I've wondered about that term in relation to flags for a very long time. I find it even weirder in America where most religious people tend to be very iconoclastic as a matter of either doctrine or practice. Seriously, if an Evangelical or Fundamentalist treated a religious object or image with the same degree of formalized respect that we are supposed to show our flag, they would be considered seriously out of line.

Notice that this also raises an establishment clause issue, since an anti-desecration law must by definition officially declare that which can't be desecrated to be sacred. So such an amendment would in fact establish a sacred religion of flag worship.

Something can be sacred without being worshipped. In fact, in my own tradition (Orthodox Christianity) only God is worshipped, but there is a great multiplicity of sacred objects and persons, which are never worshipped, but quite vigorously venerated. Protestants and the non-religious tend not to see a difference between worship and veneration, but there is a difference.

But I think you're quite right that there is some sort of Establishment Clause issue here. To me, saying that the flag is sacred seems to imply that the country which it represents ought to be worshipped...or maybe they only meant for us to venerate the country...who knows.

Anyone know if other languages use a term truly equivalent to "desecration" when describing the same act, or do they use a term that does not imply that the flag is a sacred object.

It's all about those loveable Kentucky Republicans, Isi. McConnell's 1st election was won under a fraction of one percent. His second by about 3 percent and his 3rd by 12.

Bunning has only been elected twice, but both times they were squeakers.

Because they're just so cute-and-cuddewy.

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