Centerfield

Why I won't read at or link to LGF since it became the all-Muslims-are-bloodthirsty-jihadis blog. A mob is a mob is a mob.

Bigotry is when you assign blame to the many for the (real or imagined) sins of the few, when you should be blaming the actual sinners.

Tully,

It's fine to look at these things in perspective, but we have a tendency in America to want to be everybody's friend in the whole world.

Hence this ludicrous idea that we're fighting, "Islamo-fascists," who dislike us, "for our freedom and or way of life." You won't find any Muslim in this country that supports what we're doing over there. And THEY're supposed to be the, "LIBERAL Muslims."

We always want to differentiate in this country between EVIL and GOOD, when we should be differentiating between Muslim (THEM) and non-Muslim (US).

The problem they have with us is that WE clearly don't follow the tenents of Allah over here and yet we seem to have all the power and the wealth. Now if I was a Muslim I'd be thinking this was Allah's way of saying he was dissapointed in ME. Like I wasn't a good enough Muslim. How to fix that? Be part of a jihad.

The idea that they're secular (Why can't wee all just Geht Alawng??) or some kind of Reform Muslims is preposterous.

The best answer is to give them space, and alot of it.

Q.E.D.

"Is Islam inherently more intolerant and violent than other faiths?"

YES IT IS.
..................
"The truth is that the canonical texts of every major religion are full of contradictory statements that can be cherry-picked for a variety of messages. The Bible contains expressions of intolerance, from divine commands for conquest and genocide to the mandate of death for anyone who tries to lead a Jew astray from the worship of the one true God. The Gospel of John literally demonizes Jews who do not accept Jesus as children of Satan, and while the gospels promote peaceful evangelizing, Christian doctrine for centuries mandated Christian rule by force."

What matters is how the religions are actually currently being practiced. The major difference is that Christians and Jews today do not take these passages literally, and both of these religions have evolved. islam on the other hand is still in the 7th century and a large percentage of muslims still practice their religion to every detail to what the koran demands. It is regarded as the literal word of God. islam has failed to evolve and muslims fail to question what is written in the koran. Cathy young seems to be just another clueless western apologist for islam.

I might rate the Koran a wee bit more aggressive in its literal interpretation. Christianity is not surpassed in its fundamentalist claims of judgment and the ensuing end of time.

I think it would be fair to say that Muslims tend to be more fundamentalist in mass than believers in the old and new Testament, but this a product of cultural conditioning as opposed to the dangers of monotheism. The success of the Islamic anti-reformationists would speed Liberal Democracy and Islamic Radicalism on a collision course because the moral interpretation of their contrary guiding principles posit mutually exclusive political and economic hegemonies. Cooperation is thus muted by opposing systems of punishment and enforcement. This conflict destabilizes globalization the leading powers depend upon for their own internal stability. In this light the problems become one of social conflicts between groups empowered by different patterns of organizations and codes of behavior. The victory may well go to the system that bests reflects the more progressive and adaptive strategy, or maybe not, given the ample manifestation of stupidity, lack of foresight and greed that often confounds "popular opinion" in the West.

The only difference between Islam and Christianity is education. Most followers of Islam are rather uneducated, most cannot even read their own language. 300 years ago, if you asked Christians about the same types of things you are asking Muslims today, you would get the same answers. since then, we, as a culture, have become educated. But there are still uneducated Christians which are radical and violent.

Cavalier829: "You won't find any Muslim in this country that supports what we're doing over there."

What would you call the American Islamic Congress? There are plenty of other Muslims who support many of our actions against Islamic tyranny, including the Iraq War, especially among Iraqi expatriates (and many Iranian expatriates who would like to see something similar in Iran). Some of them even sound like members of the Israeli right, and I don't mean a mirror-image. They just don't get the coverage that the extremists get.

Dan: "Most followers of Islam are rather uneducated, ..."

The ones who create the trouble are educated though, many with college degrees, particularly in the sciences. I once read that the appeal of jihadism is strongest among those studying the sciences, with those studying humanities being fortified against such appeals, though I don't know how accurate that statement was. I would also find it highly unlikely that the Brithish-born Muslims would be less well educated than their immigrant parents, yet the parents quietly strive to earn a living while the children learn jihad either at Finsbury Park or while visiting extended family abroad.

Scott, I was speaking more on the fact that the extremists enjoy broad support and the fact that Muslims have not embraced equality. Some extremists are educated, thats true. So is Rush Limbaugh and Pat Robertson, yet I label them both extremists because they are simply unwilling to even consider the legitimacy of a position not their own.

The best way to combat extremism is with an educated populace. That is why extremism in this country does not enjoy popular support. Ward Churchill, Pat Robertson, Howard Dean, Ann Coulter all remain on the fringe because Americans, as a whole, are too smart to buy into their crap.

islam has failed to evolve and muslims fail to question what is written in the koran. Cathy young seems to be just another clueless western apologist for islam.

Laura, since you've raided the topic of cluelessness, what part of "Even in milder forms, its misogyny and rejection of pluralism make it incompatible with a liberal society" did YOU have trouble understanding?

If you are going to continue to visit simply for the sake of throwing ugly smears at people whenever they express a view that varies from yours, you could at least take the time to read and understand their words so that you can be sure that they in fact DO differ substantially from yours. I fail to see where Cathy Young has been an "apologist" for muslims in any meaningful sense whatsoever.

Perhaps you'd find a happier home with the mob over at Little Green Footballs, where there's no such thing as little green individuals, only little green groupthink.

The modern "jihadist" movement is very much a product of the 19th century similar to Christian "rapture" theology. It is a movement of fairly recent vintage and got a bit of a boost in the early 20th century. The idea that Christian and Jewish religions have "moved on" or evolved is astonishingly naive when you consider that the fundamentalist movement in this country is only a few decades old and before 9/11 was the biggest source of domestic terrorism. The fact is that the most violent aspects of Islam are of fairly recent vintage in historical terms. Even during the Crusades when both side we committing acts that by today’s standards seem unconscionable, both Christian and Islamic leaders were on speaking terms and negotiated many deals and treaties that accommodated each other with terms that featured coexistence.

The idea that Christendom is immune to midwifeing a violent movement, particularly when so many today openly advocating a scorched earth policy of genocide against Islam is laughable on its face and there would be plenty of biblical support for such a movement. Violent Islam is simply an idea that has festered and flowered for the last 100 years and in a lot of ways the US is a convenient target for that movement because of our entanglement and dependence on Middle East resources.

Ward Churchill, Pat Robertson, Howard Dean, Ann Coulter all remain on the fringe because Americans, as a whole, are too smart to buy into their crap.

I don't know what is so "fringe" about best selling authors, top rated radios hosts and religious leaders that control 1700 TV stations? Of the above list only Ward Churchill is truly a "fringe" personality and I don’t even know how you can put Howard Dean on that list with a straight face. You might not like his policies but please tell me how out of the mainstream Dean is with the policies he supports, they are all pretty mainstream unless you really think that things like National Heath insurance is a “fringe” idea.

they may all be "top rated" but since when are the extremist figures of either party enjoying true popular support? Dean is an extremist - his idea of National Healthcare would push this country into socialism. Dean could very well front the Communist party and not miss a beat.

1700 TV Stations? Really? where did that come from? a whacko right-wing neo-nazi religious show called the 700 Club controls 1700 TV stations?

Ann Coulters book was bought only by those who are on he fringe, and there are alot on the fringe, but they are not even close to a majority. So she sold 100,000 books, big deal. I could sell 100,000 books if I called the Democrats whiners too.

O.k., Once again I learn that it is a mistake to say ALWAYS or NEVER or ANY, but if we look at the Presidential election returns you'd be hard pressed to find a political grouping whose opinion changed more dramatically than that of American Muslims.

Apparently in 2000, due in part to some major gaffes on the part of the Clinton Administration with regard to racial profiling, the Muslim American community voted 72% for George W. Bush.

In the election of 2004, they voted 93% for John Kerry. That's better than he got among African Americans. And that's a 66% loss for George W. Bush. Gee, why would that be?

So there is an Ex-Pat community, but are THEY representative of Muslim opinion?

So there is an Ex-Pat community, but are THEY representative of Muslim opinion?

QED, Cavalier. The whole point is to NOT treat "the muslim community" as a monolith. DON'T let one group speak for all. Don't assume that some number of rotten apples indicates the whole barrel is beyond salvage.

What's so hard about expecting that there is a range of opinion, and that the more you look the more variance you'll find? I am pretty unshocked that an overwhelming majority of Muslims voted for Kerry over Bush. It makes an awful lot of sense to me that American muslims would look askance at a President who led invasions of 2 muslim nations. To any muslim, the bottom line lowest common denominator there is that such wars are killing many muslims. There's really no way to invade 2 muslim nations without expecing an overwhelmingly negative response from American muslims, coming from the most visceral level. There just isn't. That's how people work.

But I would not leap from that to the assumption that many or most American muslims are therefore violent jihadists or have substantial sympathy with the prescriptive ideology of violent jihadists. That's a gigantic leap. I invite people to step away from that cliff.

BK,

Nice metaphor.

First of all, though I cited American Muslim opinion as commensurate to that of Middle-Eastern opinion, I don't believe I was speaking of the former when addressing Muslim susceptibility to Jihadism. Only adding their's to the weight of Muslim opinion against the American operation in Iraq.

But See, this is again where I believe we Americans see things in terms of Evil vs. Goodie-two-shoes. The sentiment seems to be, with regard to Iraqis in particular and Middle-Eastern Muslims in general, that, "they like us, they really, really do," so they would never join up to kill us. We bank so much on our own loveability that we blind ourselves to how actions offend their religious beliefs. The fact of a non-muslim military force with it's boots touching the soil of a Muslim nation is an OFFENSE to their religion. As this condition persists, it becomes an issue of religious purity among their population as to their opinion regarding the American forces.

I think many would say to us, and have, "thanks for taking out that Sunni Hussein, but GET YOUR FILTHY HEATHEN BOOTS OFF MY HOMELAND.

By so strongly associating ourselves with infallible good we just miss the boat. To me it's like a fundamentalist Christian's viewpoint on the bombing of abortion clinics. Officially, most Christians would tell you, "this too is a sin," but some part of them is so vexed by the continuing legality, let alone fraudulent Constitutionality of abortion, that it appreciates this violence in private as justified.

I think it's the same thing for Muslims re: the Jihadis. You say, "But I would not leap from that to the assumption that many or most American muslims are therefore violent jihadists or have substantial sympathy with the prescriptive ideology of violent jihadists." Again I would concede this to you as regards American Muslims, but as it concerns Iraqis and other Mid-East Muslims, I think you would be blinding yourself to the possibility of this sympathy possibly because you equate people who dislike, "the good things we're doing in Iraq," with evil and with terrorism.

This may not even be YOUR reasoning behind it, BK, but we KNOW this is the way ALL TOO MANY Americans view this issue. I mean, "WHY DO THEY HATE US?" has been said SO OFTEN in the past 5 years since 9-11, it really betrays a childish naivete.

"QED, Cavalier. The whole point is to NOT treat "the muslim community" as a monolith. DON'T let one group speak for all. Don't assume that some number of rotten apples indicates the whole barrel is beyond salvage.

What's so hard about expecting that there is a range of opinion, and that the more you look the more variance you'll find?"

Please, pardon my ignorance regarding it's usage. I looked it up and QED is Quod Erat Demonstrandum, meaning, "that which was to be demonstrated."

Are you asking me to, "PROVE IT?" Just so I know, what do you mean?

But again, I should have used this paragraph instead of the other in my last posting. You talk about rotten apples and I think this betrays an opinion that to oppose the American effort in Iraq, you'd be considered, "a rotten apple."

A new book is out by Andrew Kohut of the Pew Research Centers, "America Against the World: How We Are Different and Why We Are Dislked." In it one of the things he indicates is that the rest of the world doesn't seem to have a problem with saying they do what they do because, "it's in my interest," and leaving it at that. Americans on the other hand seem to need the rest of the world to see us as their saviors, or at least appreciate how nice we are.

This is only the latest of the reasons why I DESPISE the Bush clan and what it has done to the GOP. Republicans most of all should be for, "America First," but they too have been corrupted by Crusaderism.

Q.E.D. in modern usage--> "The thing itself has thus been demonstrated." Meaning the response has illustrated and affirmed the point. "See? There it is!"

In this case, both Brian and I were saying that you illustrated the point of bigotry arising from considering groups as monolithic actors, when they are fractured groups of discrete and diverse individuals. Just as religions such as Islam and Christianity are not of one mind, but are factional with many differing viewpoints between and within the factions--which was what Cathy Young was pointing out--and that assigning a label to the group misrepresents the entire group as having the assigned attribute, and thus facilitates bigotry.

Examples:

"All jihadis are Muslims, therefore all Muslims are jihadis."

"Fred Ph*lps is a Christian. Therefore all Christians hold the same views as Fred Ph*lps."

Fallacious assignation of groupthink.

[*--asterisk included to spoil search engines from adding any weight at all in any fashion to the despicable creature mentioned]

Cav, I agree entirely that anyone who asks "why do they hate us" is demonstrating gross naivete. This is precisely the word that sprang to my mind as you spoke of "they like us, they really, really do," so they would never join up to kill us."

I sure hope that there are very few remaining Americans yet to be disabused of such ideas.

Ah, so what your saying is: I proved your point.

O.k., I hope that doesn't mean you consider me a bigot. Do I believe that Muslims are unreachable? I kind of do, but part of that is because I believe we Americans are not reaching from a perspective of humility.

When push comes to shove human beings will always fall back on group identity because their society demands that of them. I don't think people hold a single opinion because they've come to that opinion through reason and research but rather because that is the opinion required of the group.

When we leave, Iraq (if that ever happens) I would be very surprised if nearly every leading political leader in the country established their bonafides with their electorate by pronouncing a curse on us on our way out.

As for America, I do think we are naive enough that we'll be pretty dissillusioned by what we see as this withdrawal occurs.

I don't to be insulting towards my fellow countrymen, but think it is true. And I think you'd be surprised the degree to which at least the Pro-War opinion is derived from speeches by Bush about Righteousness of our cause. Bush is incapable of seeing any point of view but his own. In an era when people seem to think they could be caught in the next twin-towers, his opinion becomes their opinion.

I know there are wonks out there like you and me who do reason, but I don't think most of American is covered by this.

(And Fred Ph*lps has two heads, right?)

Should have written, "didn't establish," not "established." I see their leadership doing this.

I am certainly no religious scholar and am certainly not going to try to parse out the differences between Islam, Christianity, and Judaism. But, clearly, if one reads the Old Testament, it is very sanguinary. The difference is, obviously, the Judeo-Christian culture has evolved. One thing that no one has considered is the effect of colonialism on the development of Islam. Many of the Muslim countries were ruled by western countries that used a variety of techniques to retard their development. As a result, these countries never had the kind of economic and political development that moved western societies away from fundamentalist religious practices. Most religions distinguish between believers and non-believers; the difference is that western society was allowed to develop differently do that these societies are defined by more than religion. In the Muslim countries, religion has become the one way of establishing independence and fundamentalism religion especially. Moreover, I think you can look at the rise of militant Islam as an outgrowth of the Third World movement against imperialism. Militant Islam follows a lot of the precepts of Frantz Fanon in terms of redemptive violence against the West.

My point is that it makes no sense to consider militant Islam in isolation from the larger historical context of Islamic societies. There are obviously a lot of Muslims (including my neighbors) that follow the religion but aren't out blowing up buildings. That suggests that it's ridiculous to say that Islam itself is inherently more violent than other religions. That's not to say, of course, that there is no such thing as violent Islamic extremism; obviously there is and it is difficult for me to understand that kind of hatred. But I think you can see it as much in terms of political and social conditions as religion.

As for Laura, it must be difficult to remain as ignorant as she is. But I guess she and Ann Coulter get along well.

Cav, I think it could be said that Ph*lps' two heads were bitter, then none. :-)

NOT calling you a bigot. Saying that assigning the attributes of individual members of a group to ALL the members of a group leads to bigotry. The larger the group, the more likely that assignation is to be wrong, and to a greater degree.

No Cav, I'm not calling you a bigot. Of course people exhibit mob-like conforming behavior. It's a problem, that's for sure. And sometimes a virtue too, also for sure.

I think a good model of cultures calls for human cultural behavior to be understood both as mass behavior and as individual behavior. Perhaps a good parallel is the way in which physicists understand light by sometimes thinking of it as exhibiting wave (mob) behavior and sometimes exhibiting particle (individual) behavior. They have to resolve this by unsatisfactorily saying that light is both, or neither.

I reject the notion that all muslims are unreachable both because I don't believe it, and also because to accept it is to commit to the idea that the only resolution is a final showdown, so that we hjve to either have that final showdown or accept chronic irresolveable stalemate with periodic violent confrontation.

Most all true belivers are unreachable. Views not founded on reason are not accessible to reason. Islam has more than its share of true believers these days, for a variety of cultural and historic reasons. In the end, it's a generational issue best dealt with by taking steps to foster positive evolution over time. Give the currently maturing generation of muslims other good things to believe in:
opportunity,
stability,
predictability,

collegial coexistence with others who don't believe as you do on every issue but share important ideals about things like
the rule of law,
a just government,
the pleasures of family,
gratitude about what a just system can provide

Give the coming generations of muslims a chance to appreciate these things through direct experience, and they will evolve, and islam along with it.

I don't think you can reach true believers because they live in a world that is largely in their own mind, divorced from reality. Moreover, they fashion this world to provide something they can't get in the real world. So, no, it's unlikely that you will ever be able to persuade committed terrorists that they are wrong. You have to somehow marginalize them; but, of course, that is what makes terrorism so difficult to combat. You can reach 99 out of 100, but that one person, with modern technology, can wreak a lot of damage. Numerically, I'm sure the number of actual Al Quaeda-style terrorists is very small--probably inherently so given the need to find the most committed people. But you obviously don't need a lot to do a 9/11.

Gentlemen,

Thanks again for your thoughts.

BK, I don't think the absence of common ground with much of the Muslim world means, necessarily, that we're condemned to a doomsday scenario. Rather, I think it means they need more time to see that Constitutional and liberal democracy is right for them, but that when we attempt to push these upon them, they may not appreciate them as much as if they'd fought for them alone by themselves.

Turkey is a really good example of how to do this right. It has NEVER been occupied and never had to be recontructed. They came to Democracy all by themselves, and although they certainly haven't done it perfectly, they do know the dangers of Islamic fundamentalism and have Constitutional checks with which to counterbalance it. Checks that it is worthy to note, do no exist within the Iraqi Constitution.

Our own Constitutional system did not develop in a straight-line either. I reject the notion (though I'm not accusing anyone here of this) it is better to spread democracy through intervention, because somehow we just don't have enough time to get it done before a nuclear confrontation occurs that a dictatorship would be less likely to handle well.

Even in Iran, where that sabre-rattling Ahmadinijad currently governs, I think we'd be better off allowing the interal process to work, lest we turn him into a defender of the faith, and re-elect him in the next 4 years.

Our presence complicates the progress of democracy, I believe.

BK, I don't think the absence of common ground with much of the Muslim world means, necessarily, that we're condemned to a doomsday scenario.

Nor do I. I think I recall correctly that the word you used was "unreachable." It's the declaration of "unreachability" that leads to the doomsday scenario. If someone is unreachanble, you're saying that they are beyond hope of reconciliation or redemption. That acts as justification for whatever alternate strategy you choose to adopt because they are "unreachable."

"Rather, I think it means they need more time to see that Constitutional and liberal democracy is right for them, but that when we attempt to push these upon them, they may not appreciate them as much as if they'd fought for them alone by themselves."

Not to be a post-modernist, but who are we to say that Constitutional and liberal democracy is right for them? Maybe it's not. Maybe we are treating this as a universal doctrine when in fact constitutional democracy is a system developed out of specific historical circumstances.

The point is not to defend autocracy and oppression or to argue against democracy. I certainly hope that people come to constitutional democracy. But, in the same way that Marxists thought that communism was an ahistorical doctrine that would eventually spell the end of history, maybe we are doing the same thing. Maybe it's not right for everybody. Maybe we should adopt a page from Thomas Jefferson and see ourselves as an example for others to follow, IF THEY WANT,rather than pushing a doctrine that was developed under specific cultural and economic circumstances. That's not to say that many people in the Muslim world don't want democracy of some sort, but it may not be what we mean by democracy. Moreover, constitutional democracy has its flaws as well; it's not necessarily irrational for people living in a different culture to reject the values of liberal democracy. I think to a large extent the West and, in particular, the US, is seen as a meddler in trying to push our type of societal organization. I'm not against promoting democracy, but perhaps we need to let people come to it in their own way (or at least without us having such a heavy hand).

Marc, that's a good point in general, but in this specific instance, it's hard to say that Iraqis ever had a choice. I agree that ultimately Iraqis have every right to reject democracy if the people don't like it.

But I don't think our policy is that that everyone must choose to govern themselves as we govern ourselves. I think our policy is that having experienced the benefits of liberal democracy, we believe that every subjugated people deserves the right to try democracy on for size, legitimately and at some reasonable length.

Of course, this DOES make us true believers in a way. We're basically true believers that any people oppressed by a despot or series of despots deserves the right to try legitimate self-determination. There it is. Blindingly obvious and begging to be noticed. We have true belief in giving collective power to the people. Should we be surprised that powered authoritarians cast this in an us against them light? Of course not. They have power to lose. is it a cultural conflict of the east versus the west? Not really, I say. It's ultimately a conflict about how people deserve to be governed.

IMO the ideal form of government is perfectly enlightened despotism, which is far more efficient than democracy, which is slow and messy. The problem is that a truly enlightened despot is a unicorn...we've never found anything closely resembling it. Until that search bears fruit, we stuck with the least bad of the available options.

So everyone make their case.... . :-)

Also, Marc, many people, including some in the region, blame us for supporting non-democratic governments over there in the past, from the Shah in Iran to the Sa'ud clan in Saudi Arabia. In fact, some people quite often say that our support for those non-democratic governments is one of the reasons "they" (the amorphous middle eastern "they") "hate us so much". In which case, we must decide which types of governments we are going to support, which non-democratic, illiberal repressions we will tolerate, etc., in the name of "cultural differences" and "maybe democracy won't work for everybody".

Now, maybe it would be best for different cultures to reach democracy on their own timetables and through their own bloody civil wars and revolutions of the type which characterized the Western development of liberal democracies, but that's a different argument altogether.

BK, Maybe we use that word differently: Unreachable.

To me the absence of common ground makes one unreachable.

Maybe the common ground I mean then is a willingness to leave each other alone. But in the absence of any OTHER common ground that's still an option.

I believe that was my point, Marc. Not to be pushing democracy on other countries.

I'm not willing to push what I think is best on others, but I DO actually see it as intrinsically better to a small "l," liberal and Constitutional system than one where ones right can not find redress.

Democracy, like Caviar, is a refined taste. One that many in our own country do not even have.

As for doing democracy differently, I think one finds that democracy without liberal rights (mob rule) can be even worse than a dictatorship.

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