Centerfield

I have to agree with you.....6 trillion dollars worth of finacial records goes through SWIFT each day. That is more than $4,000,000,000,000,000 per year. If you want to see where terrorist money flows, one would start with SWIFT, yes? (9/11 was orgainized in EUrope) We all knew this was going on since 2001, so where is the public interest now concerning this story?

Perhaps we should fight terrorism with plastic forks and paper cups.....

Sorry, you're not allowed to use anything deadlier than a spork!

They don't have to be for the terrorists to not be on our side, and to do damage to us with reckless disregard. The word is hubris. Aristotle had a few words to say on the subject--his insight is undiminished by time.

That's exactly it, Tully. It's hubris. They're journalists first, and responsible citizens second. The NYT sees itself as the sole determinant of the validity and necessity of public knowledge. They think you have a right to know, and their judgment is the only one that's valid, in their view. It's the soft tyranny of those who go beyond being the responsible check on state power, to being the unchallenged, self-appointed gatekeepers. They don't wat to help the terrorists, but that doesn't mean they aren't.

I'm not sure that I agree that the NY Times is clear, legally. The reporters stated that the material was classified, and had reason to believe that it was classified. I think some culpability rests on them.

Whether they get prosecuted is, of course, a political decision.

IMHO they're not in the clear at all, LR. It's an obvious violation of the law. They think they're above the law. They're not. Whether or not they get called on it is, as your rightly note, a political/prosecutorial decision.

The Scratching Post blog has some thoughts on the issue, with a nice nod to the Law of the Instrument as an analytical prism.

At some point the Times will do something so egregious to national security even their supporters will abandon them. I'd rather see them self-destruct more than anything else.

And yet the Times continues to pepper their pages with "insightful" reports concerning hostile alliances, activity in Chavez's uranium fields, new evidence of high-level enrichment by Iranians. They often had a knack for anticipating emerging risks to national security.

The Times even suggested sending more troops to Iran before the General Critics appeared in mass.

Therefore, I find fault on two levels. First, the Times tries to be hawkish (or at least "sleuthing detectives” for Liberal Democracy) regarding national threats and strategic dangers.

Then the Times takes journalistic "stands" in the name of "the public interest" without really giving reasonable journalistic context or considering the over all coherence of existing strategies. My understanding is that SWIFT had no way to mine such data volume (Negroponte offered) and that judicial review and process is in place.

Now at the Washington Post, we have periodic showcases from people everyone knows are Right of the WP's editorial position. In this case the WP gives voice to the notion that Rice appears to be capitulating on Iran. I bet their op-ed is very much against hostilities with Iran. They play this game more through guest editorials than the Times, though Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz and others post at the Times.

I remember their reporting when Israel took out Saddam's reactor. It was couched in journalistic admiration over the boldness and determination of Israelis to defend their long term interests against those sworn to destroy them. The Times supplied the context with dozens of articles and spoke in terms of Western interests and the defense of democracies against tyrannies. It seems like there is obvious journalistic uncertainty about both the “unconstitutionality” of classified processes and who our real adversaries are. Or else such "stands" have moved beyond legitimate concerns over liberty and stumble into political punches using classified information. If the editors are confused, perhaps they should read some of their printed articles on page two, three and four.

I say this as a Times reader. There are at least three sides to this story and two are definitely partisan in nature...

Excuse me, I meant sending more troops to Iraq.....

At some point the Times will do something so egregious to national security even their supporters will abandon them.

If you follow the Scratching Post link, you'll see that seems to be happening already. Beginning immediately after the Nov 2004 elections.

IMHO, the NYT has a bad case of BDS. And it's destroying them.

I agree with you that the newspaper as an organization is not an enemy, however why do you start with the assumption that the motives of the authors are pure? There are a lot of possible reasons to disclose information that aid the terrorists. "Journalists are so committed to the profession and the institution" is one possible reason, so is a profitable book deal as the men who saved civil liberties, fame, social status, or being AQ sympathizers. How many more effective programs would need to be compromised before you question your assumptions?

Bernie, I never said their motives were pure. I said they put their own ideologies above the public interest. That's hardly pure. Initially I was trying to give them some benefit of the doubt, but whatever their motives, they have in this case hurt the war effort.

Thanks to Tully and Pat's insightful analysis over at the StubbornFacts blog, I've since changed my mind on the question of prosecution. It's clear that whenever classified info is leaked, those diseminating the info are subject to prosceution. Generally, it's up to the Executive Branch wjether to prosecute. In this case at least, I think prosecution may be warranted.

Prosecution, sure, but what I would love to see is a civil suit againt the paper after the next terror attack. That would change the attitude of the paper when they decide who to hire and what to publish.

Yeah, I think they need to lose where it will really hurt them: In their wallets. Of course, people could simply stop buying the paper.

While I am inclined to believe the the NYT exercised poor judgement in airing the story, I think we're also seeing some of the consequences of crying wolf. In this case, the administration has a pattern of hiding its actions behind national security imperatives in what could legitimately be viewed as political CYA. Now that there is a likely bona fide secruity concern (having heard only from the Assistant Treasury Secretary who seemed quite reasonable in his explanation, I will remain ajar until I hear the other side) and sufficient court involvement to demonstrate that suppressing the information is not CYA, the administration's credibility gap drags the case down.

Translation: "It's OK, 'cause the Bushies made us do it."

So is trust earned, or is it to be granted to the government as a presumption?

I know very little about this case, but on the surface it appears that NYT has made an error of judgement. NYT doesn't get off the hook for that.

Nor does the Bush admin get off the hook for fostering an environment of distrust. If this should not have been made public, that's a shame for our country. As ye sow, so shall ye reap. Who eats the bitter harvest? We do.

I know very little about this case, but on the surface it appears that NYT has made an error of judgement. NYT doesn't get off the hook for that.

They knowingly facilitated, committed, assisted and probably solicited blatant felony violations of federal law, ones that actively impair U.S. efforts against terrorism and may well result in the deaths of both civilians and troops--deaths that could have been preventable. That's an "error of judgement" like randomly shooting around a bank while robbing it is an "error of judgement."

If this should not have been made public, that's a shame for our country.

Steer manure. It's the shame of the NYT. It's a "shame for our country" that there are legitimate reasons to keep completely legal national security programs secret in wartime?

Nor does the Bush admin get off the hook for fostering an environment of distrust.

Great heapin' piles o' fresh conflationary blame-storming fertilizer, Batman! "Look what they made us do! It's all their fault!" The NYT broke the law. They knew they were breaking the law. They knew there was nothing even remotely illegal about the program they were revealing--they affirm it in their own article, with their own words and their own research. Unless they're hopelessly idiotic, they knew that revealing it could potentially cost the lives of Americans, both civilians and military, and of innocents in other countries. And they did it anyway. Their own published justifications amount to "because we think we can do it and get away with it".

Would you defend the NYT publishing troop ship departures and ocean crossing route maps for same in wartime, when there were enemy submarines lurking offshore? Same principle. As far as I'm concerned, the blood of any deaths resulting from their revelation of this program falls directly on the Old Gray Lady and her minions. "Depraved indifference." Not mansluaghter. Murder.

Translation: "It's OK, 'cause the Bushies made us do it."

Certainly not! The point is only that the administration should not be held blameless, not to let anyone else off the hook.

Another question is what could be done to create an institution with more moral authority to declare that the national interest demands suppression of information without suspicion of ulterior motives.

Scott, there is no evidence, zero, zip, zilch, none, that the Bush Administration has misused any of the secret NSA or other programs for any improper political purposes, to gather evidence on an "enemy list" or anything like that. What exactly is the "taint"? On what basis do you suspect its moral authority in this area?

Scott, there is no evidence, zero, zip, zilch, none, that the Bush Administration has misused any of the secret NSA or other programs for any improper political purposes,

That is not necessary for there to be a political motive to keep it quiet. Just keeping secret that it was conducting a statutorily illegal act, while claiming that there was no need to amend the law to authorize the action, is a political motive. There's also the administration's general obsession with secrecy, with or without claims of security relevance. That is, unless publicity would serve some Republican political objective, such the outing of Gorelick's role in the pre-9/11 firewall between intelligence and law enforcement or the early publicization of the Ghailani capture.

Tully, I quite clearly said that the NYT doesn't get off the hook for what they did. I can't BE any plainer than that. If they broke the law, punish them. That's fine with me.

Seem to me that what's troubling you is that I can't match your level of outrage. Sorry Batman. Like I've already admitted, I haven't followed it very closely. Maybe you missed that. If I'd know more, I might have called it a gross error of judgement. You might think that too tame and an unwarranted understatement. YMMV, but I don't have any problem with saying that, say, commiting murder is a gross error in judgement. It's accurate even if it's n ot comprehensive.

I do 100% stand by my point that the Bush admin has fostered an environment of mistrust. I'm far from the only one who's concerned about all sorts of things the admin has done in the name of national security. Technically legal or not, I'm not thrilled by many of them, even if, were I given the details, I might very well concede in many cases that they were defensible actions or even ultimately necessary.

Secrecy breeds mistrust, and that's absolutely a contributing factor in events such as these. IMO, that's undeniable. My point is that this current environment is unfortunate for ALL of us, and is having negative side affects. Please notice that NOWHERE did I claim that such contributing factors mean that illegal actions are therefore excusable. YOU were the one who jumped to that. Nice leap:

"Look what they made us do! It's all their fault!"

Why Tully, I do believe you're putting words in my mouth to make your point and obscure mine. This phrase is a GROSS misrepresentation of my view.

I'm not BLAMING the Bush admin for NYT breaking the law (if they did...I simply don't know...I'm willing to concede it at least for the time being.) The current enviropnment is what it is, and perhaps such an environment was inevitable in the wake of the events of the past few years. But it's not reasonable to deny that it's an enviroment that the admin by its policies has chosen to foster. You reap what you sow, and I don't say that for the sake of insulting the admin. You can sow something in absolute good faith, and still reap substantial negative side affects. That's show bidness.

Wowzer! That nasty old Bush admin is trying to keep classified national security programs secret! In wartime! Stop the presses, we must Reveal All Now, or The Fascist Rethuglicans Will End Civilization As We Know It!

The point is only that the administration should not be held blameless, not to let anyone else off the hook.

Blameless for what? Did the administration publicly reveal that perfectly legal, but previously unknown and classified program, knowingly placing the lives of citizens and soldiers at risk, in defiance of US Code, in a felonious fashion, and with depraved indifference to the predictable results of that action? No? Then they're not to blame. Bottom line is that the NYT did it, and they're responsible for what they did, and excuses are like...well, we know the rest of that saying.

That "spread the blame" argument is the same as the "It's society's fault I robbed the bank and sprayed bullets around" defense. Or "It's the bank's fault, they had lousy security, and they did nothing to hide it." Or "they charged me too much in overdraft fees." Nope, it's the NYT's. They knew the law. They held the gun. They robbed the bank. They pulled the trigger. They own it. Theirs.

There's all kinds of things you can blame the Bush administration for, with varying degrees of justification, depending on your own mileage. The NYT's despicably irresponsible (and illegal) behavior is not one of them. "Moral authority" used in that sense is a complete crock, a strictly subjective "standard" claimed by absolutely everyone. That standard does not appear in the law. The NYT knew it was a completely legal program, and that it was classified. They even said so, in their article. They knew it would harm national security, and that the loss of that program's confidentiality would destroy its usefullness, and that the program had saved lives and would almost certainly save more lives in the future. If there were any doubt, it was explained to them. Even John Murtha asked them not to publish. They published anyway. They are completely and totally 100% responsible for their own actions, and they own the predictable results, including any criminal prosecution. No spreading the blame, no scapegoating, no "Look what they made us do!" No rationalization. No justification. No scapegoating or blamestorming. No excuse.

Giant heaping piles of freshly ruminant-processed organic fertilizer.

Brian, if you're talking about the program revelation, the "atmosphere of mistrust" argument is still giant heaping piles...well, you get the point. It's irrelevant, at best a sideshow redirect, a Barnumesque distraction* to steer away from the subject of the NYT's knowing and willful criminal actions, and their complete culpability for same.

There are no other ways to read it. It's either attempting to change or diffuse the subject, or trying to excuse the NYT by spreading the blame. I'm not letting any such diversion pass without throwing the flag. No Vaselining the lens to soften the focus. The NYT robbed the bank and pulled the trigger. They own it.

It was not an "error of judgement." It is not an "issue of trust." It was the knowing and willful commission and abetting and facilitation of felonies that damaged national security and placed lives at risk, committed with full and complete foreknowledge of the potential consequences to others AND the legal ramifications of committing the crimes. The NYT thinks it's above the law. You can assign your own motivations, but they knew exactly what they were doing.

[*--"This way to the egress!"]

Sorry, Tully, I'm not backing down. The issue of an environment of mistrust can be used to "soften the focus" as you say "THEY" are doing. But it's absolutely not what I was trying to do when I voiced my opinion. I'm not talking about what THEY are doing.

I'm expressing my view about what comes to mind based on the issues that were raised by others here. I expressed my opinion and you attacked me and blew everything I said out of the water, up to and including putting words in my mouth. You classed me with a bunch of distracting apologists and I don't appreciate it one bit.

Incidences such as this cause me to reflect upon on how the current need for secrecy creates a lousy, unstable, environment of lack of trust between various public insitutions, and between Americans themselves. And YES I DO think that it is indeed a shame for the American people that we have to suffer through it.

That doesn't mean it that these particular actions can't ALSO be a disgrace for NYT. That NYT appears to have broken the law is not something I've disputed, not even once.

BTW, I really can't quite wrap my head around your claim that a willful intentional act of wrongdoing is NOT an error of judgement. I know that rhetoricians like to use "error of judgement" to imply that what was done was therefore a non-sinful, non-criminal act. I've never bought that. If someone judges that what they are about to do is ok,or righteous, or that they could get away with it, and then they do it, and it turns out to not be OK, then their judgement was in error, right?

You must have interpreted what I said to mean that I thought that NYT felt that their actions were either legal or morally justifiable. And maybe they do, I dunno. It's not what I meant though. I just meant that they f%&*(ked up.

And for the umpteenth time, I haven't followed it closely. It doesn't interest me that much. And yeah, maybe it should. But once again, there's the issue of environment. After the eleventeen hundredth attack on NYT as liberal evil incarnate, frankly my eyes glaze over. My experience has been that such cries have been at least 50% bullshit on 9 out of 10 previous occasions, tiresome he-said, she-said insider baseball.

I've done my best to take a quick look into this. Does anyone have link to the actual Times story? What precisely are the objectionable evil releases of information?

Should I be working under the assumption thar prior to this article, terrorists were not already assuming that we were watching every penny we could? Does this article provide specific information that makes it easier for terrorists to disguise money flow?

Oh, and and a technical legal question as it relates to "classified information".. .suppose I am in possession of information which I think might be classified, but I have not been explicitly and officially informed as to its classified nature by a government official. If I give this info to someone else, did I break the law? If spreading classified information a crime all by itself, or do I have to spread it knowingly?

Brian, there's a link to the NYT story over at StubbornFacts, you can get to it from there.

You should be working under the assumption that terrorists are not omnipotent, that while they know the government is looking for them, they do not know just precisely HOW and WHERE the government is looking for them. Prior to the publication of the article, there are documented successes whereby the U.S. caught actual terrorists based on this information, so at least as some point they clearly and provably were not aware that it could be used to track them.

And this is just like how Osama got harder to find after some idiot/traitor spilled the beans about how we could track his location via the cell phone he USED to use.

As for classified information, in general you must spread it knowingly in order to be guilty of a crime. Here, that's not an issue because the NY Times has acknowledged that the U.S. Government at the very highest levels told them it was classified prior to their final decision to publish.

What if some type of information is classified but is somewhat widely known even though it has been classified? Please notice that I am absolutely not on a fishing expedition to show that NYT was in the right. I am mostly just curious, since reflection has suggested to me that the business of classifying information and the legalities of it could be quite complicated depending on who already knew what priorto its being classified.

Sort of an issue of the merits of ordering the barn door closed, depending on how many horses were left inside.

Tully,

At the risk of appearing to step away from my established position on this, I have to ask: Do we know they willingly did this for the explicit purpose of undermining the terror war? I mean, I've always argued that it was arrogance, excess of zeal, stupidity, and anti-Bush hysteria that made them do this, and that regardless of intent, they broke the law, hurt our national security, and ought to be punished. I've always held back from the idea that this was willful treason, as others have suggested.

Frankly, I just think someone with authority needs to firmly tell the New York Times, to back the f--k up.

Rafique, the law makes a distinction between motive and intent. Intent is quite often a requirement to find criminal activity. Motive almost never matters to the law.

Here, the NY Times had the intent to knowingly disseminate classified information, which is defined as a crime. Whether their motive was to undermine the war on terror, sell newspapers, or inflate their own egos matters not a bit for purposes of whether they violated the law or not.

Brian, those are interesting questions in the abstract, but they matter not a bit here. The program was classified (from the beginning - it was never not classified), the leakers themselves told the NY Times the program was and remains classified, the Administration and Congressional officials who asked the Times not to publish told them it was classified, the NY Times article itself admitted that the program was classified.

The issues you raise allow the rest of us to talk about it after the Times blabbed, but they don't protect the Times at all.

I note no one is calling for the hanging of Bob Novak. Darn, just when I was looking for a little consistency from the right.

In the game of leaks, we have several world-class outfits: The CIA Moles, the White House Crows, the Media Repeats, The DOD Badgers, the NSA Peepers, the Senate Trojans (the origin of the Osama cell phone leak), the House Lemmings,

Bush thinks 750 laws "do not apply" and has leaked with impunity when it serves the Crows purpose. Foreign Affair discusses the deliberate manipulation by the Crows to misinform the public (see Iraq Intelligence Manipulation). The view of many is that the Crows have avoided yellows by using executive power at the expense of Constitutional process.

The NYT Defenders thinks 'Public interest" is a more defendable concept than let's say, a,...amending the Constitution to curtail minority rights. Republican Congress is gearing up for elections with a push to amend the Constitution (rather than renew the voting rights act, pass an immigration bill, review executive and activities in areas of intelligence and Republican corruption. Instead, they seem emboldened by making it illegal to for one to burn the American flag "if your intention is to deface (as opposed to destroy by fire as recommended by the federal government). I guess South Park might get their chance to go to the Supreme Court.

Did our Founding Fathers consider a free press and individual expression an important check of government? The Defenders are not going to jail and have as coherent an idea of "public interest" as the Crows have with their blanket free pass of "national security". They really do not even believe the courts have a right to rule on secret activities.

This is partisan politics (demonize Bush and the Press) and both sides continue to fray the Constitutional fabric. We will have more leaks, We will have more erosion of Constitutional law. Next year we might be asking can a cartoon burn a flag? Is my bathroom private? Shall we let government make some intentions illegal? Should a person with a clean record be denied a job because a test predicts he or she might become a pedophile? Are warrants warrant less?

Right now, the Times report is about walking on the edge as does this administration.. And the Republicans love the controversy to motivate their base. Let’s see what the Trojans think, leak,…..

More attempts at spreading the blame. More attempts at moral equivalence. More trying to change the subject.

The NYT knowingly facilitated, committed, assisted and probably solicited blatant felony violations of federal national security law, destroying a completely legal classified program that had already saved an unknown number of lives, prevented at least a half-dozen fresh attacks, and resulted in the capture of terrorist killers of hundreds of innocents. By doing so, the NYT has actively impaired U.S. efforts against terrorism and perhaps even insured the future deaths of an unknown number of both civilians and troops--deaths that could have been entirely preventable.

They did this with the full and complete knowledge of the illegality of their actions, and the potential future results of their actions. In law, that's known as "depraved indifference."

That's what you're defending, folks. Are you proud of it?

Pat:

Yes, I think you answered my question perfectly. The motive is irrelevant to the law, but the intent is clear. They willfully broke the law, and whether they knew the risks or not, they are morally and legally culpable. I still don't call it outright treason, but it doesn't have to be treason, to violate the Espionage Act, and hurt our security.

Here's a nice letter from the Secretary of the Treasury to the Times' editor. When I was reading this thread earlier, I was trying to imagine what hyperbolic body snatcher replaced Tully. I now know it's really Tully, and I no longer think what he wrote is hyperbolic. The Times screwed the pooch on this one, big time.

If the account given by the treasury secretary is indeed true, then I think what we are seeing here on the part of Keller is willful opaqueness. Keller has committed to what he sees as the journalists role and the license that he believes it grants him.

On many past occasions when we've discussed media bias, I've maintained that the strongest most overweening media bias is not a political slant to the left or right, but a bias of the media to achieve its own goals. The media is biased in its own self-interest, which causes them to believe they have an ethical right and even a responsibility to publish virtually whatever they want.

I'm sure lots of folks think Keller acted as he did because he's a deranged enraged lefty who did this specifically to put a hitch in the admin's side, thumbing his nose becuase he thinks he can get away with it. That's possible of course. But it'a alkso possible, and to me its just as likely, that Keller acted as he did because, in the fog of a true believe, he felt that publishing was the right thing to do because his responsibility is to play the proper role of a journalist.

I have deep contempt for such people who use the responsibilities of their role as an excuse to ignore concerns which should be overriding.

I'd be very interested to find out how much actual as opposed to theoretical damage is caused by the outing of this program. But I don't expect I'll ever really get to find out.

By the way, I'm 100% proud to say that I stand by all of my previous statements in this thread. Not once have I "defended" NYT. I continue to believe that the admin's secretive and adversarial relationship with the press increases the likelihood of events such as these. I also continue to believe that by saying this, I am NOT excusing any transgressions by the NYT or other press members. I am simply pointing out that the polluted enviroment between the press and the admin has to have negative side affects for our country. Once again, I'll note that it's likely that in many instances the admin has little choice but to be both secret and adversarial.

In other words I'm saying that we should notice the air we're breathing, even though not breathing is not a response option.

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