Centerfield

Mathew,

candidates that do not consistently subscribe to this overall conservative agenda

There's a lot of spin in this article.

The operable phrase here is "this overall conservative agenda." In order to understand just who is being freezed out, we need to know what "this" overall conservative agenda is, since it refers to a particular one (and not to be defined by the individual, such as with the Gang of 14 and "extreme circumstances") and the violators of which are being targeted. After all, if the agenda was filled with resolutions like (for example) "must oppose the installation of Communist and Jihadist governments on American soil" or "must oppose the confiscation and distribution of private property" or "must oppose the mandatory wear of burqas for women in public," then it wouldn't be "moderates" being frozen out-- it wouldn't even be liberals being frozen out, just Communists and Jihadists.

Now the writer doesn't completely state what "this" particular conservative agenda is, but she does write:

The convention delegates later approved a collection of resolutions that strongly promote conservative stands, such as securing the nation's borders, supporting the death penalty and calling for a ban on so-called partial-birth abortion.

Ironically, according to polls, they may indeed be conservative positions, but they also happen to be positions with widespread popular support-- i.e., "mainstream" positions. (And I really want to know who this so-called "moderate" is that opposes securing the nation's borders!) But since we don't know if these three examples are (1) representative of the other positions, if they're (2) the most conservative positions, or if they're (3) the least conservative of the positions--then it's kind of hard to conclude that "moderates" are being frozen out.

So, to find that out (rather than just accepting the reporter at her word, which we all agree we should never do), we have to go to the actual Convention Resolutions of the Republican Party of Wisconsin. That has their literal laundry list of positions that compose "this" particular agenda, including Taxes, U.S. Senate Filibusters, and Reforming Social Security, all of which are further from mainstream opinion than the examples the writer used (in fairness, though, the writer probably doesn't realize that the examples she cited are more mainstream than extremist, given that we tend to base our definitions of such on what is in our immediate surroundings).

In the end, you'll have to read through the Convention planks to determine if opponents to such positions are "moderates," "liberals," "Communists," or "Jihadists"-- most of the positions are pretty much non-issues (such as "urges that all taxing authorities be elected not appointed, to their positions by the voters in the communities they serve"-- seriously, are there really people out there who think there should be unelected bodies imposing taxes on the population???) And since it says "this overall conservative agenda," that connotes to me that they allow defections on some issues, so long as the candidates, in aggregate, support the "overall" agenda.

But, in any case, what you failed to mention in your introductory post-- what the reporter did cover-- is that this resolution to deny funding to those who oppose the Convention planks (Resolution 25) is non-binding, which means that the GOP leaders in Wisconsin are free to fund precisely the candidates and campaigns that they support, and oppose funding the candidates and campaigns that they don't support-- which, ironically, is precisely what they were able to do before passage of Resolution 25.

Again, lots of spin here, Mathew. Don't take the writer at face value. I'm not so sure that any moderates are actually being frozen out at all by this Resolution. I mean, it seems to me that if someone can't support a majority of his/her Party's positions, then they probably aren't a very good fit for that Party and should look elsewhere if they want public office.

But what do I know.

Mathew,

Awfully quick to condemn the GOP for "memo tactics" meant for internal readers.

Allow me to ask, were you this quick to condemn the Democrats last year and the year before regarding their "smear" tactics which were "memo's" for internal eyes only too or are you only interested in slamming the party of political ideology you don't adhere too, thus an attempt to persuade a general public that isn't familiar with political and/or governmental news by informing them of something you want them to know yet not informing them of the same behavior on the other side of your likings?

Hey Mathew...Dan Rather called, he wants his job miseducating the populace that you took from him back...

RR, kindly refrain from making personal attacks on our long-time contributors.

If you want to dispute the conclusions Mathew reaches from his post, that's fine. If you have evidence of Mathew being hypocritical, you could even bring that up. But we don't approve of entirely speculative personal attacks on each other here. Especially not stupid cheap shots like yours. Dan Rather jokes are so '04. You merely reveal your own mental inadequacies, and do no help to any cause you hope to promote.

What Bobby said. You can find the adopted platform of the Wisconsin Republican Party here. Note what's not in it--the "play ball or else" warning.

The newly adopted platform of the Wisconsin Democratic Party is here. Final sentence of the latter: "We expect all candidates supported by the Democratic Party to support this Platform and, when elected to office, to work to implement it." Same thing, they just leave the "or else" silent.

The WDP did not post their convention resolutions, but after looking through the resolutions and platforms of a few other state Dem parties, it's a good bet they looked a lot like this year's set [pdf] from the Minnesota DFL.

The WisGOP Resolution 2006-33 puzzles me. What prompted the "collectors rights" resolution? Have government enforcers been swooping down on comic book conventions to confiscate unlicensed stocks of Superman #76? I'm missing something there. Some hot-button local issue.

Tully, I think that resolution may be aimed at increasing efforts of foriegn countries trying to use legal means to recover antiquities. Plus some efforts to recover art that may have been 'taken' during a foriegn war and brought back here.

Also looking at the resolution, it may also be aimed at items in private collections that are of historical value. There are some who think that no one should be able to own a historical items and they should be in museums.

I tracked it down to the originator, a numistatist collector/dealer worried about the effects of international conventions on his hobby/business.

Lighten up, Pat. You're taking yourself too seriously.

RR, me calling you on an unprovoked cheap personal shot does not constitute taking myself too seriously.

Lets see, an organization adopts a non-binding resolution that states candidates it promotes for office must generaly support the policy positions that it's membership has democraticaly determined are representative of it's members wishes or it will withold support/funding from those candidates. Funding that comes through voluntary contributions from it's members and thier supporters so that they can see thier political viewpoint represented. This is shocking/wrong/news how?

Pat's right, RR. That Mathew found a particular thing that looks bad to him does NOT obligate him to go out and find every bad thing anyone ever did. That's the same reasoning that says we shouldn't do anything to right any wrongs anywhere unless we simultaneously attempt to right all wrongs everywhere with equal force.

He made a particular citation. That he did not throw in the entire universe of available comparitives in some false attempt at moral equivalence does not reduce his point.

Lets see, an organization adopts a non-binding resolution that states candidates it promotes for office must generaly support the policy positions that it's membership has democraticaly determined are representative of it's members wishes or it will withold support/funding from those candidates. Funding that comes through voluntary contributions from it's members and thier supporters so that they can see thier political viewpoint represented. This is shocking/wrong/news how?

It isn't shocking, but it is interesting if the language here is considerably more stringent than one would usually expect (something which isn't at all clear, at least to me).

Party and platform language is always tactical. There's not a semicolon in the final draft that hasn't been fought over by a dozen factions and which isn't in there in answer to a particular political reality (although it may be vestigial and no longer very relevant).

If the language here is exceptionally strong, you can bet that's because some group or even some individual is being specifically targeted.

Well, I think it aptly raises the question of when a tent becomes too big? There is probably no such thing as too big a tent for the Pols.... but the same doesn't hold true for the voters. As a voter, I really don't care whether a candidate has an R or a D in front of thier name.... what I want is a candidate who is reasonably going to represent my viewpoint on the majority of issues I care about (along with being honest & competent). I can tolerate a candidate who diverges from my viewpoint to a certain degree (you're never likely to find a candidate you agree with 100% of the time) but diverge too far on too many important issues and there really is no reason to support them anymore. I'm sure that holds doubly true for the people who volunteer time or cash to support thier local parties. I doubt they are volunteering because they had a toy elephant or donkey as a kid and therefore have an abiding love for the Dem. or GOP parties.
They do it because they have certain viewpoints & ideologies that are important to them and they have a reasonable expectation that the people/party they are supporting will help those viewpoints/idealogies be realized. If not then why would the be contributing thier time and effort? It seems perfectly reasonable to me for such individuals to require candidates who wish thier support to represent thier views to a certain minimum degree. Frankly it strikes me as damn honest..... somewhat of a novel concept in politics.

If only the, "conservative," they mention involved limiting government instead of telling everyone else what to do in the bedroom.

Social fundamentalists (they're NOT Conservatives), I call them religionists, just can't accept the idea that they maybe 1-in-5, if they're lucky, of the country's voters. These people just aren't bred to think in terms a common agenda. It's 100% or nothin'. And now this stuff is reaching all the way up in what used to be Progressive Wisconsin?

The only good I come away with from this is that I suspect the country is going through a realignment afterwhich all these folks are forced to compromise or join the NeoDixiecrat party.

In CA, these people are ready to dump a guy like Schwartzennegger over his cabinet appointments when the country is in the thick of an immigration battle. You know, go save Alabama, with that kind of attitude.

It seems perfectly reasonable to me for such individuals to require candidates who wish thier support to represent thier views to a certain minimum degree.

Generally that's done through the choice of candidates. Note that the Wisconsin Democrats' similar statement actually made it into their platform, while the GOP version did not.

Of course, once elected the candidate is sworn to uphold and defend the Constitution of the United States, not the platform of the GOP or Democratic Party. Once elected their duty is to represent their constituents. ALL of them, not just the ones that made noise at the county convention.

It's an interesting kabuki dance, inherently contradictory from the starting gate.

I was stunned when I finally went through the Texas GOP platform, line by line. It's one of the very firsts posts on WeekendPundit.com if anyone would care to see. It clearly states that the Party is opposed not only to Gay Marraige but gay rights in general, that it opposes abortions in any form, and actually includes opposition to the US participating in the United Nations. Was this written by some militia group in Waco or something? Worth noting is that the platform also notes that the party may not support any candidate who does not fully endorse the entire platform. It's only through the ineptitude of the Democratic Party that the GOP retains such a dominating role in Texas. If moderates are not given a greater voice, eventually a strong Democratic candidate will come along and sweep them into power.

WP,

Upon WHAT basis do you believe a Democrat will EVER hold office in Texas again?

If you look at the polls they've got 4 candidates running for Governor of that state and the most mainstream candidate the Dems could come up with, Chris Bell, has been in 4th place the whole time.

Without minorities in sufficient quantity patch together a quilt the Democrats are no longer a viable political party in Texas.

"Once elected their duty is to represent their constituents. ALL of them, not just the ones that made noise at the county convention."

Sure, but one would assume thier constituants elected them to actualy institute the things that the candidate campaigned on. After all, what other venue do the People have to see thier will expressed then by expecting the candidates they elect to office to follow through on the issues they campaigned on?

In other words, the agenda might have been set by a few noisy constituants at the county convention but the constituancy as a whole approved it when they voted that candidate into office.

In other words, the agenda might have been set by a few noisy constituants at the county convention but the constituancy as a whole approved it when they voted that candidate into office.

I say nope. Dead Wrong. The voters elected the candidate, not the party platform. The electee is responsible to the entire population of his district, and to the Constitution(s) they swear an oath to support and defend. That the candidate will follow the dictates of the few is certainly the hope of the few, but the few do not elect the candidate. The many (the voters) do.

The voters can expect the candidate to at least pay lip service to their own campaign promises--but that is NOT the same thing as robotically following the party platform. Only a very small portion of the voters are platform-worshipping partisans. Most are pragmatic utilitarians, or simple ticket-punchers. The utilitarians will vote for the candidate that best fits their own outlook, and the ticket-punchers will vote on the label, regardless of the platform.

Naturally the party activists and convention attendees want to exert as much influence as they can over elected officials affiliated with their own party. They are by definition the True Beleivers. But the conventions and the parties don't control the electorate, and it is the electorate that the candidate must please and appease to be elected and re-elected. Insist on robotic platform-followers, and you lose elections. When you lose elections, your party platform is irrelevant, and has zero chance of carrying any weight at all.

I've said it before and it bears constant repitition--the parties are NOT monolithic blocs. They are multi-level coalitions of diverse and assorted factions, each with their own issues and with oft-conflicting agendas. One faction may seize enough control of a convention to get their issues line-itemed in, but that doesn't mean that the candidates will be from that faction, or follow that faction's direction. A candidate who is a faction-bot has a lower chance of winning--they represent a minority view, by definition, and the opposition can "triangulate" towards the center and pick off the seat.

The party machinery of any state party tends to be controlled by the wings. Why? Because the moderates in the party often don't like getting their hands dirty in the nitty-gritty hand-to-hand combat of party politics. Why run to be on the party's central committee if your opponent (a dedicated winger) is going to campaign for the tiny little seat by calling moderate you a baby-killer (because you support abortions in case of rape or incest) or a war-monger (because you support the war in Afghanistan or Iraq)?

Many centrists and moderates have just abandoned the parties rather than fighting back to take control of them. Which only makes them become more extreme. Voting for extreme positions on the party platform is easy... they're not binding, they have no effect, they are just a general statement of philosophy. Candidates don't fight back against them, even when they adopt policies they disagree with, because they're not binding and fighting them overtly (rather than just ignoring them later) would simply antagonize the base.

Cav,
The biggest reason for the decline of the Democratic Party in Texas has been poor leadership. Ann Richards was very successful (despite being a terrible governor) because she could motivate Democrats to get to the polls. The Republican strength today is largely a result of George W's popularity as governor (when he was still much more of a moderate). With Henry Ciseneros' self-destruction, Richards' departure and no popular statewide Democrats, the GOP has no real challenge. But given how weak Rick Perry is politically, it's clear the GOP's dominance is far from concrete.

"I say nope. Dead Wrong. The voters elected the candidate, not the party platform."

Gotta disagree with you here Tully. On what BASIS do the voters elect the candidate to office? Because thet have a nicer smile or a better haircut then thier opponent? What possible reason is there for me to vote for candidate X over candidate Y if neither of them are actualy going to follow through on doing what they campaigned on?

I'll buy the arguement that a candidate should not have to "roboticly" follow thier party platform... IF the candidate didn't campaign on that platform... in which case they shouldn't really expect very strong support (financial or otherwise) from the people who set the platform (which is the point of the article). However if a candidate campaigns on a particular platform they better damn well do thier utmost to see it enacted.... to do otherwise (IMO) IS a betrayal of the people who voted for them.... and pretty much thumbs thier nose at the entire concept of representative government.

Seems to me, your arguement has things turned on thier head.... it has the People beholden to the candidates..... rather then the candidates beholden to the People. Candidates are elected to do a job.... not to turn around and do whatever the hell suits thier fancy once they get into office.

Again, it's perfectly ok with me if a candidate doesn't want to follow his party's platform...as long as he doesn't campaign on such a platform. However, such a candidate shouldn't expect strong support from the people setting the platform.

Let me ask you this.... what venue do people who really want to see a set of policy positions enacted have to get those positions realized? In our system, the ONLY legitimate venue they have is to offer thier support to a candidate who commits to those positions in order to get that candidate elected to represent them in the legislature. If, upon election, such a candidate turns around and decides to abandone those positions, then (IMO) they are total slimebag.... and a large part of what's wrong in politics today.

WP,

Are you from Texas? How do you know what you do about the situation there?

I would not consider Texas to be a moderate state, though it's voting history has been all over the map, due in no small part to Presidential tickets with LBJ, Lloyd Bentsen, and the Bushes.

Just checked out your blog on the TX GOP Platform, so I see where you're coming from.

Still, It looks like any effective opposition is more likely to come out of a 3rd party than the Democratic Party.

Cav,
Yep, I'm in Houston. The thing to remember about Texas is that the major cities are extremely diverse. A strong Hispanic candidate, from either party, would do very well. But every time it appears there's one ready to step up, he falls flat on face with some scandal or something. I do think there's a real likelihood that an independent will win the governor's race this year. I'm backing Kinky Friedman (if you look past the jokes and read his platform, he's actually got some good points) but I think Carole Keeton Strayhorn will win. She's a moderate Republican, all the way, but she's running indy because she couldn't get the nomination away from Perry. And you're right, Bell is running fourth despite the lukewarm backing of the Democratic Party.

On what BASIS do the voters elect the candidate to office? Because they have a nicer smile or a better haircut then their opponent?

Posit two governors of the same party and adjoining states. Governor X follows his party's platform to the letter, things go terribly. Governor Y starts out following the platform but as things go bad he changes his positions, in fact, things work out pretty darn well.

Who did a better job of governance?

Hey WP,

Glad to know ya.

I'm with you on the Kinky Friedman candidacy. Given the people we are, "supposed," to vote for, I don't count people out just because they're wierd, though I'm, "supposed," to. After all, if they're wierd, they've pretty much got to be genuine, don't they?

And in the era of Bush, Gore, and Kerry, I'd nearly sell my 1st born to buy some genuine. We've even got McCain going down the path of, "a wink and smile."

Greg - Define "terribly" and "bad".

See here's the thing, one persons "bad" is another persons "good". I think the problem is that alot of times people try to kid themslves that there is a single objective "good" in politics...there isn't. "Good" and "bad" (IMO) are subjective...they all depend upon what goals you want to achieve and what you are willing to pay to achieve them.

I'll grant that oftentimes people can set unrealistic goals...or posit unrealistic costs to achieve them.... or choose methods that won't achieve the goals they have set. I'll call those activities bad governance. But I'd posit that platform positions speak more to the goals themselves then about methods for achieving them.
Alot of people have said that the Party's really all want the same thing, they just advocate different methods for trying to achieve them.... I don't think that's true at all. I really think that they have different goals entirely and different values.

For example, lets say (entirely hypotheticaly) that by instituting far more frequent capital punsishment you could reduce overall violent crime by 30%.... yet at the same time you know that 1% of the people you are executing would be innocent and prehaps a further 20% would be "redeamable". Now some people would say that such results would be "terrible" because the state would be executing people it didn't have to...... while others would claim such were results "terrific" because overall violent crime was taking a nose dive. It all depends upon what your goals and values are and what costs you're willing to tolerate to achieve them.

P.S. Personnaly, I'm willing to give large kudos to some-one who tries to institute a particular policy... see's empiricaly (prehaps because of changing conditions) that it is not achieving the intended results or that it is creating costs or consequences that weren't anticipated when it was planned and modifies thier policies as a result of that reality. However that's an ENTIRELY different situation then a person who campaigns on a particular platform and then turns around and ignores that platform when they get into office. In the former case, the candidate is at least making an honest effort to do what they campaigned on ....and is reacting to new information that they didn't have when they were campaigning.... in the latter case, the candidate is engaging in what in any other field of endevour would be labled FRAUD.

On what BASIS do the voters elect the candidate to office? Because thet have a nicer smile or a better haircut then thier opponent? What possible reason is there for me to vote for candidate X over candidate Y if neither of them are actualy going to follow through on doing what they campaigned on?

Better go back and re-read what I wrote. The platforms of the parties are NOT synonymous with the candidate's campaign. You vote for candidates, not parties or party platforms (at least I do). The only people who vote on party platforms are convention delegates. By definition.

Seems to me, your arguement has things turned on thier head.... it has the People beholden to the candidates..... rather then the candidates beholden to the People.

That's the complete and total opposite of what I said. GO BACK AND RE-READ WHAT I SAID. To read it your way, one has to mistake the whole of "the People" for the convention delegates. And I said repeatedly that convention delegates are a a very small minority of the overall electorate, and that an elected official's primary duty is to the entire population of his district and to the oath he/she swears to uphold, not to their party.

That some state party conventions feel the need to add the "Do it our way or we'll beg the party leaders to cut off your money" clause to their platforms tells us right off the bat that candidates elected to office DO NOT follow the detailed party platforms once in office. Minimal observation tells us that successful candidates DO NOT always campaign on straight and detailed party platforms, or even close.

Ideological purity in a candidate in a competitive district is synonymous with loser. The base can be as mad as they like about that (witness those "or else" clauses) but the party leaders know that it's better to have someone in office who's 65% on your side, than someone who's 65% against. And party leaders tend to be a lot more practical than those agenda-driven convention delegates.

Beware the silly simple thinking of the parties as monolithic blocs. They are not. I'll say it again: They are multi-level coalitions of diverse and assorted factions, each with their own issues and with oft-conflicting agendas.

"Ideological purity in a candidate in a competitive district is synonymous with loser. The base can be as mad as they like about that (witness those "or else" clauses) but the party leaders know that it's better to have someone in office who's 65% on your side, than someone who's 65% against. And party leaders tend to be a lot more practical than those agenda-driven convention delegates. "
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Ya, but it's not the party leaders that are coughing up campaign contributions out of thier own pockets nor volunteer hours out of thier own time. It's the rank and file that are doing that...and they are doing that because they happen to believe in a certain set of positions.
For THOSE people it may not mean a spits worth of difference to have some-one whose "65% on your side rather then 65% against" if the 35% that is getting excluded happens to be the things they really give a damn about. It may, in fact, be better to have some-one run and loose... to at least get the viewpoint into the public debate.... or better yet to concentrate those resources on getting people elected in districts where you CAN win on those issues and not waste them on ones where you can't.

Again, it may be better for the party as a whole (i.e. the Pol's) to get as many candidates elected as possible even if those candidates happen to diverge widely from the positions of the majority of thier base..... but it's NOT neccesarly good for the people IN the party.....
further it IS thier sweat and cash that are the resources in question....I think it's perfectly reasonable for them to insist on a minimum set of criteria a candidate must meet in order to get access to it.

Uh huh. Working overtime on missing the point, aren't you?

Convention delegates are not "the People." They're not the party "rank and file" either. They're a small agenda-driven True Believer subset of the party--either party. They can insist on ideological purity if they wish--their ideology, not the "rank and file's," which is much more diffuse and diverse and pragmatic--but they don't have many ways to enforce it, and to the extent they succeed, they often just reduce their own party's power, losing elections by feilding ideologue candidates that can not garner a majority with the general electorate.

All the angst in the world from True Believers won't change that fact. But feel free to keep not understanding the difference between a party convention and a general election, where the candidate must get an actual win with votes from the entire electorate, not just the True Believers or the party "rank and file," both of which I note are minorities in a competitive district.

The elected official's sworn duty is to the electorate as a whole, even when they may owe allegiance to the party. Those in competitive districts who forget this become ex-officials, because the electorate notices such things. That's the system working as it's supposed to. I've sworn those oaths. Matter of fact, I swore another one last night.

"I, [withheld], do solemnly swear to uphold the Constitution of the United States and the Constitution of the State of Kansas, and to faithfully discharge the duties of the office of [withheld] to the best of my ability, so help me God." (Article 15, Section 14 of the Kansas Constitution, if you're interested.)

Not a single word in there about embracing a party platform. Nor a single word in my legal duties of office about the parties at all. Instead, my duty is to those two Constitutions and to "the People" of the state and nation. ALL of them, not just some party convention delegates. An elected official might owe some allegiance to his or her party, but when the rubber meets the road, in practical, legal, and moral duty, "the People" trump the party every time. And that's a judgement call the sworn official must make for themselves.

Ok, Tully, maybe I am missing your point....but you seem to be doing an awfully good job at avoiding mine... oy maybe I'm just misinterpreting what your saying.

The attitude I seem to be picking up from you is that candidates aught to be able to take the loyalty of thier base (i.e. the people who help get them elected) for granted simply by virtue of having the right letter in front of thier name and being marginaly less objectionable then the other guy. Well that just doesn't cut it.... in order to EARN the support of anyone (including the "True Believers" of the base) a candidate aught to meet certain minimum criteria on the policy positions that are important to those people. Being slightly less odious then the other devil running isn't going to cut it if they want to get thier base to come out and vote for them..... and I think what the tone coming out of these conventions is about is the base is putting them on notice of that.

I'm a self-decalred conservative and I know I wont be voting GOP for any office higher then REP. (and maybe not even that) if the GOP doesn't turn around and scrap the de-facto amnesty program they want to push....and I don't care WHO is running against them. They can pander to as many new demographics as they want...but they are going to loose the support of the ones that they already have if they push it too far. Sometimes it's GOOD to remind candidates of that by handing the opposition a victory for an election cycle or two.

Secondly, maybe I'm missunderstanding exactly how the convention delegates get chosen. Aren't they generaly elected by the membership of local (county) parties? Maybe I'm mistaken about that process but if I'm not.... it sure sounds like those convention delegates DO represent the party rank and file....

Finally, I understand the point about serving all the People. But the fact of the matter is that you CANT make all the people happy on every issue because the things different portions of the people want are mutualy exclusive. If a portion of the people want the street signs painted green and a portion of them want it painted blue... your gonna have to disappoint some-one. Now if you campaigned on blue street signs and actualy got elected...it seems to me that the People have spoken... and if you want to faithfully serve the obligations of your office in serving the People you damn well aught to follow through on what you campaigned on and paint em blue. Now, if as a candidate, you think blue street signs are too extreme and therefore you are campaigning on making them aqua... that's fine, that is your perogative.... but you shouldn't expect the support of the people who really want them blue...even if your opponent is running on making em green. Ya, the people who want blue signs are going to be disapointed THAT election...but maybe if people get a chance to see how god awfull green signs are for a few years, they'll rethink thier stances the next election cycle....and if not, well hey 3 cheers for Darwin... but they are never going to even have the chance to try to change peoples minds if they don't try for it...right? (Just like the Aboltionists, and Womens Sufferagettes, etc).

Furthermore, respecting the Consititution leaves alot of room for different policy positions to be enacted. You can decide to paint the street signs EITHER blue or green and still uphold your duties to the Constitution... right?

Again, I understand that a party plank is different then what a given candidate might campaign on. However, if a given candidate campaigns on something which is too far divergent from the party plank....they really aught not to expect strong support from the people who set that plank, should they?

The attitude I seem to be picking up from you is that candidates aught to be able to take the loyalty of thier base (i.e. the people who help get them elected) for granted simply by virtue of having the right letter in front of thier name and being marginaly less objectionable then the other guy.

Aboslutely not. I'm saying that a party that demands ideological purity will be a disenfranchised party, as their "pure" candidates will LOSE. Predictably. Repeatedly. Often. I'm saying that the convention delegates mainly represent only activist party members. But every single person who registers for one party or another is a "party member," a much larger group. And the registered party members are themselves but minority subsets of the entire electorate.

A party member's loyalty may be to the party--or not. The motto of elctoral politics aeverywhere is "What have you done for me lately?" But an elected official's overriding loyalty and duty is to the electorate as a whole. If that lines up with party interests (non-competitive districts "owned" by one party) they can get away with ideological purity. In a competitive district those who forget where their overriding loyalty and duty lies are called ex-officials. They can (and will) be beaten by any candidate who can convince the electorate they will better represent them as a whole.

Insisting on ideological purity from elected officials in competitive districts (which is EXACTLY what the flap is about) where the majority of the electorate is NOT of one's party, is a guarantee that you will not have an elected official of one's own party in that district to whine about, because they will LOSE. And they will deserve to lose, as that ideological purity will mean they are NOT representing the majority of their constituents. (It would likely also mean that they were NOT fulfilling their sworn duty, but that one relies on particulars.)

That's real life and real politics in a competitive political environment of democratic pluralism, which is what we have. To return to your quote above, I am saying the inverse--party members make the mistaken assumption that they OWN the candidates with a certain letter in front of their name, that party loyalty takes precedence over a broader loyalty to the constituency as a whole and an even broader loyalty to the larger body politic, precedence over the sworn duty of an elected official, and precedence over the reality of politics in a pluralistic society. That party loyalty must be greater than one's loyalty to one's oath and dut and constituents.

Which is silly, infantile, selfish, stupid, and a host of other things. Parties that cannot adapt to this reality will field losing candidates. This is precisely why solid red states such as Kansas, Montana, and Oklahoma now have Democratic governors, and will have Democratic governors next year as well. And why Connecticut (Kerry by 10% in 2004) has a Republican governor coasting to re-election.

And quit equating "the base" with the convention delegates. How many times do I need to say it? The convention delegates are a tiny fraction of the electorate, even of the registered party members, and are not "the base." At best, they represent only the robotic ticket-punchers and single-issue voters who will vote the party line or single-issue position regardless of who is on the ballot. In a competitive district, "the base" is ALL of the voters who support a candidate regardless of party registration, NOT the party whose initial is in front of their name. They are not synonyms.

See here's the thing, one persons "bad" is another persons "good". I think the problem is that alot of times people try to kid themslves that there is a single objective "good" in politics...there isn't. "Good" and "bad" (IMO) are subjective...they all depend upon what goals you want to achieve and what you are willing to pay to achieve them.

cengel, I meant nothing so subtle by "good" and "bad" and, trust me, you'll not find a more ambivalent political relativist than I. I was talking about "good" and "bad" ends about which there is a prohibitive normative consensus. I.e., "people shouldn't starve to death" or "criminals shouldn't be allowed to get away with it." A "bad" result, in this language, is: the candidate campaigns as "tough on crime" and crime goes through the roof, or the candidate campaigns as "pro-education" and graduation rates drop 50%.

I disagree with you that the interesting split in the electorate is over ends. I think that the electorate has an extraordinarily high level of agreement on results. Partisans either unintentionally or willfully committed fall in love with the means proscribed by their party (or fall into pathological mistrust of the other party's means) and then support those means even when it becomes obvious that other means can achieve the very ends they set out for.

Partisans try to justify themselves by saying that allowing the other party to triumph will result in Unbelievably Calamitous results for other ends and for God's sake hide the silver and the children (reverse those two if they're a liberal), but, again, those arguments ring hollow for pragmatists, who will take half a loaf today and come back well-fed for tomorrow's fight.

Sure Tully, I get that...but there are worse things then loosing an election TODAY. Maybe not for the Pol running but for the people voting who care more about the issues they are voting on then about electing Joe Smith to office.

Take any number of issues that we take for granted as mainstream today (Womens Sufferage, Equal Rights, even Representative Government).... at some point in the past they were all vastly umpopular. You couldn't get elected in 1804 if you ran on a platform of equal rights for negroes and indians and you couldn't get elected in 1874 if you ran on a platform of allowing women to vote. Those ideas stayed alive because there were "idealogical purists" who weren't willing to compromise thier principles to win today... and were willing to loose year after year as long as they could just move things one inch closer to the goal posts.

Don't get me wrong. Most ideas that are vastly unpopular are vastly unpopular for a damn good reason. If an idea is going to eventualy make it past those goal posts it's gotta have merit in the first place.... and conditions have to be right for it to prosper.... and it has to have moderates that ARE willing to compromise at the right times and places to keep things moving.... BUT it ALSO takes those "idealogical purists" that
you guys at Centerfield tend to knock so often. There is alot to be said for not surrendering ones principles in the face of adversity...if those principles are worthwhile to begin with.

At the end of the day it's up to individuals to determine who and where and under what conditions they are going to support a particular Pol. Furthermore, I again have to ask... if the convention delegates DONT represent the party rank and file...then exactly how are those delegates selected? Maybe there is something I'm not understanding about the process?

I think it's a valid decision for a party to say.... Look if you want our support, you have to meet certain minimum conditions... if you don't meet those minimum conditions - win or lose - you just aren't worth our support. After all, the resources (volunteer hours, contributions & endorsement value) that a party is talking about when they talk about support, belong to the party in the first place not the Pol, right?

Furthermore, I again have to ask... if the convention delegates DONT represent the party rank and file...then exactly how are those delegates selected? Maybe there is something I'm not understanding about the process?

The method of choosing delegates to the state convention can vary from place to place, but generally it's the county party wheels and their buddies, and issue activists they wish to reward. If you're unfamiliar with how your own local parties select and elect their officers, I can't help you. It varies from place to place, so your own locale may differ. But most places state convention delegates are NOT chosen by the "rank and file" of registered voters with that initial in front of their name, other than perhaps very indirectly. Your average registered Democrat or Republican can't name their county party chair, and had little or no direct voice in selecting them. They may (or may not) have had a voice in selecting the committee members in the county party that in turn select the county party leaders. Or the precinct committe members who picked the people who picked the party officers.

These delegates get together at the state convention and immediately start fighting over who will control the agenda and grab the most goodies for their county/region/issue. It's not a pretty sight, though if you have the stomach for it I suggest you take one in sometime to see how it works. The winners get to set the agenda. The losers get disenfrachised in the state party structure. And yes, money talks.

I think it's a valid decision for a party to say.... Look if you want our support, you have to meet certain minimum conditions... if you don't meet those minimum conditions - win or lose - you just aren't worth our support. After all, the resources (volunteer hours, contributions & endorsement value) that a party is talking about when they talk about support, belong to the party in the first place not the Pol, right?

Sure, they can set conditions. And the candidates can (and quite often do) ignore them, and raise the funds and resources on their own, and win. Seen it time after time after time. I've done it myself. Most volunteers don't offer their time to the party--they offer it to the candidate. Same with money. Most candidates raise most of their own money. The party helps out, but if you can't raise your own, they won't help. Being able to raise your own money and volunteer base is part of the job description for a candidate. If you can't do that, it indicates a lack of support that will kill your candidacy.

So if you mostly raise your own money and recruit your own volunteers, what's left? An endorsement? Oh, goodie! Guess what? Parties don't make endorsements in the primaries. Winning a primary is something you do on your own dime, with your own damn resources, not the party's. It's an internal scrum. And once you win that primary, they're stuck with you. They can threaten to not support you all they like, but YOU have the ballot slot with the party next to your name. You OWN it. Not the party. Not the convention delegates. You, the candidate, own that ballot slot, and are by definition, as you are, the choice of the party "rank and file" to represent them in the election.

At that point the party has only one choice, to support or not support. If they don't support, they're actively helping the other party. (Unless the party is so unpopular that their support is an active detriment, and then they're helping the candidate by NOT helping them. The candidate will make sure this gets known.) If they "win" their non-support bid, what have they "won?" A victory for the other party! Woo. Hoo.

Party support is only crucial in the general election, by which time the candidate OWNS the ballot slot. That candidate has been electorally selected by the "rank and file," and THEY are the person representing said "rank and file" by said democratic selection. Not the convention delegates or the party elite, who represent only their party's internal power structure, such as it is.

So, who owes whom? Who represents whom? What happens when you refuse to support the candidate that your own "rank and file" have selected to represent them in the general election? You are at that point telling your own "rank and file" to piss off, that you know better than them, that their choice is not acceptable to the party elites, even though it was the choice of said "rank and file."

So yeah, I find the moaning by the party conventions that candidates don't robotically toe the party line to be whiny childish tantrums from the activist elite, not a treasonous act against the "rank and file."

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