Centerfield

Either Cheney needs his eyes checked or Whittington needs to remember to wear blaze orange. Or both. For that kind of "spread" Whittington had to be a good ways out, 30 yards or more. Isn't he happy they weren't deer hunting with OOO buckshot? :-)

I've been known to hit the ground flat when walking up on someone and a bird flushed at their feet. Depending on my assessment of the shooter's skill, which way the bird was flying, and how they were swinging. But I always let them know where I am when I'm walking up. Walking up unannounced behind folks with guns isn't the brightest thing in the world.

(For getting "peppered," there's nothing like the opening day of dove season in feed fields on public lands. Only day of the year I insist on wearing shatter-proof non-prescription glasses.)

Joe Gandelman has more jokes.

If you have Excel, this database of deer hunting accidents in Wisconsin is quite interesting (xls)

Before I go to Joe's and see if there are any I haven't already heard a thousand times, just let me say I'm glad that Cheney didn't go ahead and field-dress Whittington.

I'm sure Simon joins me in being glad this didn't happen last time Cheney went duck hunting, down here in Louisiana. Would accidentally shooting a Supreme Court justice in the ass be an impeachable offense?

This may explain why we attacked Iraq instead of Iran.

Hey! If VP Cheney can't shoot a man with birdshot, the terrorists will have won! ;-)

Pat-
That was *exactly* what I was thinking! LOL!

Not the biggest fan of the the new Wonkette, but I thought this was pretty dang funny:

May we just take a minute to say: “Best Vice President Ever.”

Seriously, people, who can compare? Hannibal Hamlin? Cool name, sure, but he was a total lame-o. Spiro Agnew? Pshaw. Did he ever say “go fuck yourself” on the floor of the Senate? Did he ever dress like he was shoveling his suburban driveway to a memorial service at Auschwitz? Did he ever shoot a man in cold blood? No. We didn’t think so. Agnew’s a pussy and you know it. Dick Cheney is a badass, and we love him. He’s like America’s abusive father — we’re terrified of him, we hide under our beds when we smell whiskey on his breath, but we crave his attention. We need him to tell us we’ve been good. We have a sick admiration for him that we’ll be describing to our therapists for years.

Do Vice Presidents have term limits? Can he please be our Vice President-for-life?

We shudder just thinking that we were almost stuck with that pretty-boy Edwards.

Naaah: Aaron Burr would have plugged him right between the eyes, and not only would he have field dressed him, he would have eaten the heart right after he ripped it from the guy's chest. Then he would have run off to Mexico to start a revolution.

By the way, where was Cheney when Jimmy Carter was attacked by that rabbit?

Hunting pheasant, of course. No respectable upland hunter bothers with bunnies. Among other things, if you shoot bunnies around bird dogs, you end up with bunny dogs. Good bird dogs are rare, and take a lot of work and training. Any mutt can kick up a bunny.

From what little info we actually have, and as a perpetual upland hunter myself, a double dumbass award is in order. Whittington walked up in a blind spot behind hunters on a covey point without announcing himself, and Cheney didn't have a clear sight picture when he squeezed off. If it turns out that Whittington wasn't wearing his blaze orange, he gets that extra order of dumbass, and Cheney's gets reduced. There's a reason for wearing that silly color.

Had a guy show up for a quail hunt one time wearing camo. We duct-taped him into a spare vest--literally. Dumbass.

Doesn't it seemas though the right are quick to dismiss this as no big deal, the left are ready to indict or impeach Cheney (same as normal, then). But I wonder what the reaction would have been in each of these corners if it had happened the other way around: if the other guy had shot Cheney?

The right has more experience with guns and quail hunting.

Someone actually said Cheney should be impeached over poor hunting safe practices? I'd like to see that link.

Faking some WMD intelligence, invading a country, violating the constitution and outing a CIA agent is all ok, just don't let me catch you hunting with people who aren't orange. Boy, those must be some really strict hunting laws in Texas ;-}

As I understand it, he was orange. But everyone's spinning this in their own direction;

The Right: The man snuck up on Cheney, it's his own damn fault.

The Left: The man was wearing orange, and yes, snuck up, but only because he feared the rightous wrath of the vice President if he shouted his presence and startled the bird(s).

The Right: Again, he did not follow proper hunting protocol. Birds be damned, he should have announced himself.

The Left: According to the NRA, the ultimate responsiblity of shooting the gun, and the effect it has, rests on the one pulling the trigger. Cheney alone is responsible for knowing both his surroundings, and what's in his target range.

Bleh. It reminds of me of when people driving cars hit people walking. The pedestrian is always right, just sometimes, literally dead right.

He was probably hunting on a game farm.

The official accident report from the Texas Parks & Wildlife Department concerning the incident.

Vice President Elmer Fudd went hunting today. Said the VP: "I didn't get a wabbit, but I did get a Wibbington."

The White House trots out its tried and true message: blame the victim!

The right has more experience with guns and quail hunting.

Perhaps, but I've never heard of Bill Clinton accidentally shooting a fellow hunter, or killing one of an endangered species, like W did back in 1994.

Is there something in that special W "hunting concoction" that we should know about? ;-)

Love the serial drive-bys.

More info: Both were wearing orange. "Strike distance" was about 30 yards, as I had speculated elsewhere from the pattern description. The shotgun was a 28 guage, pretty small bore stuff. (Cocky bastard--most ordinary folks would use a 20--a 28 is scarce enough that shells are more expensive.) All three hunters had been informed of the "ground rules" for hunting the ranch, including announcing oneself when rejoining the party. Everyone who hunts knows that you're responsible for your own shooting. Everyone who hunts upland also knows that you don't walk up unannounced on a covey point, 'cause the birds are about to flush in all directions and the lead will follow the birds. And everyone who hunts upland knows that a covey rise is a madhouse adrenaline rush, which is one reason they hunt quail. (Another being that quail are really tasty.)

Verdict from this hardcore upland hunter and safety instructor--Dual fouls, dual dumbass awards, joint responsibility. They were "road hunting," which is stupid in my book to begin with, though popular with the rich and short-of-time and those too lazy to follow the dogs on foot. Also against the law most places unless you have approval of the land owners on all sides, for both safety and trespassing reasons.

The problem with road hunting is that you don't have the same "situational awareness" of everything around you that you get when following a dog over long stretches with a group. You walk a mile or two or ten of terrain with two other people, you KNOW where they are, and you've been making sure that you know for that entire distance. You pop in and out of a vehicle to cherry-pick, you don't have that. The other hazard of road hunting is the idiots who carry loaded and accidentally shoot themselves or buddies getting in and out of the vehicle with a loaded weapon. Dumb.

And yes, this really does happen all the time. I've been "peppered" many times dove hunting, had the occasional close call or long-distance "sting" while quail hunting. Never accidentally shot close to anyone myself. Upland hunting accidents don't get the press that deer hunting accidents do, because very few people are ever killed by #8 birdshot. Past about 40-50 yards it's more annoying than dangerous, and at the max "carry" range of 200 yards it's not even all that annoying, being no worse than a handfull of pinhead-sized pellets (2mm) lobbed at you by hand. But all the brush and leaves around you rattling at once can be startling.

Oh, yeah. Humor rating: 7 out of 10, one week half-life. Some good lines in there.

Jean, I'm glad to see you visit Media Research Center. I recommend it to all who want good, concrete examples of the biases and idiocies of the MSM.

Tully, it's amazing how often the press and the left fall for these Rovian tactics. Now he's got them all stirred up over a nothing story, costing themselves credibility (have you seen the clip of objective journalist Dana Milbank appearing on a TV news spot in hunter orange?), while the military prepares the invasion of Iran, or maybe while the President conspires to steal more of our civil liberties. Seriously, I know this is good for a laugh, and I'll be laughing along with Leno and Letterman. But isn't there a lot more going on that the press should be covering instead of this?

Let's take the name "Cheney" out the equation a second and just describe the situation.

A couple of rich old guys in orange are road hunting without the proper permit. One of them shoots the other, hitting him in his orange vest. Then they refuse to let the cops interview the shooter for 24 hours.

When I use to read stories like this back home, alcohol is usually involved.

> just don't let me catch you hunting with people who aren't
> orange. Boy, those must be some really strict hunting laws in Texas
> ;-}

Well, the Texas Constitution is really, really, really long. It's
gotta be somewhere in there....

What I wanna know is, can Whittington take a hint? I mean, will he
stay Republican?

This is kind of funny

Sigh. You can't trust Media Watch.

The Killdeer is NOT an "endangered species," Jean. Media Watch is flat-out wrong in calling it one. In fact, it's pretty darn common throughout its range.

Initial reports of the 1994 killdeer kill by Bush referred to the bird as a "protected species." But it's only a "protected" bird species in the sense that it's listed neither as a "nuisance bird species" nor a "game bird species," and it's illegal to shoot any bird not on one of those two lists without a specific exemption in state law. From that "protected" wording, some folks made a BIG leap of misrepresentation. The only "non-protected" birds in the United States are European starlings, English sparrows, feral rock doves (common pigeon) and Eurasian collared-doves. ALL other birds, no matter how common, are considered "protected species" unless there are specific state regs allowing them to be shot, and no explicit federal regs barring it. Like crows in Kansas--you have to have a hunting permit to shoot crows, and there's actually a season....

This is to keep people with more shells than sense from running around blasting everything that flies, just for amusement.

The Texas Endangered Bird Species list is here. The Texas Non-Migratory Game Bird list is here. The Texas Migratory Game Bird list is here.

Bob, do you have a source for claiming that they refused to allow Cheney to be interviewed by law enforcement for 24 hours? The reports I've read have all consistently quoted the local sheriff as saying that the Secret Service notified him by phone shortly after the shooting. No mention of rebuffed attempts to interview Cheney. And of course the official Parks & Wildlife report did not check the box for "apparent use of intoxicants/drugs", and the press release specifically declared that no alcohol was involved.

I would also point out that this type of accident is common enough that the Texas P & W report form has an option exactly fitting how this happened "victim covered by shooter who was swinging on game".

By the way, the form says both Cheney and Whittington were wearing hunter orange coats/vests and caps, with brow trousers.

And following up, on the front page of the form is the question about the shooter "under the apparent influence of intoxicants or drugs?", and the officer has stated "no".

The sheriff set the interview time with Cheney at 8am the next morning when the initial report was made. No one "refused" to let the police interview anyone.

The $7 Texas Upland Game Bird Stamp Endorsement is a brand-new requirement this year. Guess I violated that one myself in December. Bad Tully! No cookie.

Over 80% of all Texas "judgement" hunting accidents occur within two non-exclusive categories: "Victim out of sight of shooter/moved into line of fire" and "Victim covered by shooter swinging on game." Lokks like they hit the Daily Double. (The last category, BTW, is "Victim mistaken for game.") They only take accident reports when physician-treated injuries are involved.

"Secret Service spokesman Eric Zahren said that about an hour after Cheney shot Whittington, the head of the Secret Service's local office called the Kenedy County sheriff to report the accident. “They made arrangements at the sheriff's request to have deputies come out and interview the vice president the following morning at 8 a.m. and that indeed did happen,” Zahren said.

At least one deputy showed up at the ranch's front gate Saturday evening and asked to speak to Cheney but was turned away by the Secret Service, Zahren said. There was some miscommunication that arrangements already had been made to interview Cheney the next morning, he said. "

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/nation/20060214-0016-cheney.html

By the time the deputies interviewed him any sign of intoxication would have worn off.

But did Cheney really not have the right tags? Maybe they passed a new stamp for that, too!

So, Bob, what you have is an allegation that alcohol was involved, made only by you, based on nothing, and the fact that a deputy failed to communicate with his own office and determine that interview arrangements had already been made? And what's the deputy's story--who pimped him into making that house call? Or did he misread 8am for 8pm on the call sheet?

What I have is a man in the hospital, and an interview/investigation that was delayed for no apparent reason.

Barring the violation of the laws of nature, or having someone in the hunting party rat out the VP, how can the Sheriff KNOW whether Cheney had been drinking? All they can report is that Cheney and company SAID they were not drinking. That's why law enforcement actually goes to the scene of the accident and administers breathalyzers.

If this had been you or me involved in this kind of accident would we have left the scene without a police interview? Would our cars have been searched? Would the police (at the very least) meet us at the hospital?

Or would we have driven back to our house and not talk to anyone till the next morning?

If this had been you or me involved in this kind of accident would we have left the scene without a police interview? Would our cars have been searched? Would the police (at the very least) meet us at the hospital?

Certainly, probably not, and maybe. It would depend on the initial report, the circumstances, and the severity of the injuries. Pretty much everyone who could would leave for the hospital with the victim and not wait for local law enforcement out in the middle of nowhere, there were law enforcement officers (federal) as witnesses on scene who were available to provide their own witness statements, the vehicle would at best have been visually checked for alcohol containers but not searched without probable cause, and unless there was a death involved or a life-threatening injury or reason to believe that the shooting was intentional rather than accidental there would be no great rush to get statements.

Now, you or I would not likely have had federal LEO's on site as witnesses, which would change the local response. But in most cases, as long as the available witnesses are not principals (victim or shooter) and the injuries were not fatal or life-threatening, they'd be happy to take an initial statement from witnesses available and gather the rest later, unless the initial statements of witnesses or the circumstances themselves indicated criminal action involved. Or if the principles were considered as "flight risks."

Accident investigation and criminal investigation have very different standards.

In rural Texas, Bob? I doubt the police would be rushing with red lights and sirens to get to the scene of an accidental shooting during a quail hunt. Everybody would be long gone from the scene, having (properly) focused on getting the injured man to the hospital rather than how things will appear to the cynical.

Would they have shown up at the hospital for "normal folks"? Maybe. Of course, keep in mind that Kenedy County has 1,389 square miles of space with a population of only 414 as of the 2000 census [pdf warning], living in a grand total of 281 "housing units". What deputy is really going to want to leave his Saturday date (probably having to drive back from the big town 2 counties over) or dinner to go interview some idiots involved in a hunting accident? Me, I suspect the Vice President was treated pretty much like any resident of Kenedy County would have been treated, making allowances (as Tully notes) for the fact that sworn federal law enforcement agents were at the scene when it happened.

Tully: On local police procedures I will happily yield to your knowledge base.

But if I had been the VP, who just shot a guy, my thoughts would have been in the following order:
1) "Oh my god, I've killed Kenny"
2) "Get the paramedics."
3) "The press is going to have a field day. Document and video tape everything. Total transparency! We don't need another scandal."

(Just for the record I've been in several life or death situations and always keep my head.)

Pat: To late/rural to respond? It the VP! They would have shown up with every car in the county. Hell, they would have brought their dates!

Treated as any respectable resident would have been treated. If it were the local dope-suckin' car-stealin' parolee trailer trash, the sheriff's office in such a sparsely-populated county would be all over it with true zeal. But that's law enforcment everywhere.

Double dumbass. They both broke basic rules. Took both of 'em doing so for it to happen. Why we keep pounding on those basics. MOST hunting accidents require multiple-party dumbass AND simple bad luck to occur.

"Oh my god, I've killed Kenny!"

LMAO. I love it.

Bush woulda likely called in the press flotilla on the spot for the instant mea culpa, just as he did for that poor killdeer.

Whittington probably said something like, "Damnit, Dick, that really stung and now I'm bleedin'. Did you at least get the bird? Tell me you got the bird. Don't forget to pick up that damn bird."

Yup, Chenney deserves to have a "I'm a careless a-hole who shot my hunting partner" cap stapled to his head for about a month.

One of the cardinal rules of hunting is - Always be sure you know your backdrop before you even THINK about taking a shot.

Another big one is to always be aware of where the other members of your hunting party are.... because the vast majority of accidental shootings involve people in the same hunting party.

Heck, I know as well as anyone how much flushing a bird can get your heart pumping.... but there REALLY is no excuse for that kind of irresponsibilty. It's dissapointing of Chenney to say the least.

I don't know about down South but such accidents are pretty rare in my neck of the woods (and I hunt some pretty crowded public lands). Sometimes alcohol is involved.....sometimes not....but almost always the guy behind the trigger is an irresponsible yahoo.

My other initial reaction was.... It's Feb.... DAMN Texas has a long bird season. We close up end of Nov. early Dec. in the NorthEast depending upon the species. Then again, maybe there's no closed season on lawyers in Texas ;)

"My other initial reaction was.... It's Feb.... DAMN Texas has a long bird season. We close up end of Nov. early Dec. in the NorthEast depending upon the species. Then again, maybe there's no closed season on lawyers in Texas ;)"

Actualy ignore that..... I just rechecked the reg's and both Quail & Grouse run till the end of Feb. up here. Just that I never heard of anyone hunting them that late. I usualy put my guns away for the season a week or so before X-mass.

Dang, our season closed Jan 31.

Yup, surprised me so much that I had to check twice to make sure I wasn't hallucinating. Only late season hunting I've ever done was waterfowl (Where your SUPPOSED to be cold, wet and miserable).

I MAY just have to break out the gun and go this weekend! I just hope I can build up enough brownie points with the wife over Valentines day to get away with it!

you're reaching tully - reach, reach, reach for the stars - speculate, speculate - it's not like cheney has a history of misleading the public

Sigh. You can't trust Media Watch.

Maybe not, Tully, but as Pat correctly points out, my info, (and my link) came from Media Research Center. Bit of a difference. A nitpicking detail, I know, but as shown here, the law is made up of nitpicking details.

I'm not surprised W reported the killdeer kill ASAP. There are some folks who would applaud if their candidate shot a protected species. It's so anti-PC, don'tcha know. Of course, these are the same geniuses who used to celebrate the New Year's by firing into the air, until they found out what Newton already knew; what goes up (like bullets)
eventually comes down. (into somebody's head.)

Still, thanks for clearing up the difference between "endangered" and "protected". Now, if Pat concedes that MRC's rightwing blog had the wrong info, then I shall dance and make merry. ;-)

In return, I shall concede that if I was going to be shot with anything, it would be birdshot, and if I was going to be shot by anyone, it would be Cheney (the guy seems to travel around with his own M*A*S*H unit.) Of course, I'm not 78 years old, like Whittington is; at that age, any injury is a serious injury. But the first two statements still stand.

Speaking of nitpicking, here's something to chew on; "Was Cheney 30 feet away or 30 yards away?"

Or, as Dirty Harry would say; "Did he fire six shots? Or only five?"

Jean,

It really doesn't matter how far Chenney was away. As some-one who has hunted for most of his adult life (and a strong GOP supporter).... I can tell you that there is absolutely no excuse for what Cheney did .....NONE. Tully and any other hunters here will tell you the same.

Whittington SHOULD have announced himself and made sure that people knew where he was at..... that's proper hunter safety (and just plain common sense)....but that doesn't excuse Cheney's screwup.

Hunting accidents are rare but they DO happen. However when they do, MOST of the time it is due to EXCEEDINGLY POOR JUDGEMENT on the part of the shooter.... this sounds like no exception.
It is ALWAYS the responsibility of the shooter to make sure they know where the other members of thier party are at all time. It is ALWAYS the responsibly of the shooter to know what lies in the direction of his shot.

Cheney, CLEARY, excercized extremely poor judgement and a man was seriously injurred as a result. I won't pretend that I'm not SERIOUSLY dissapointed with Cheney over the incident. Poor judgement over a matter as serious as gun safety does tend to reflect negatively on the individuals judgement in other aspects of life. It's the equivalent (IMO) of speeding badly on what you know is a slick road and getting into an accident which injures some-one as a result. I don't think Cheney should step down but he definately needs to come forward publicaly and shoulder responsibility for it.... it rightly should tarnish his image to a degree.

As far as GWB and the killdeer incident goes.... that is a much, much easier and more forgivable mistake to make. Species mis-identification is something that isn't that hard to do. A hunter is responsible for positively identifying the species of his target before taking a shot....and a good hunter will pass up a shot if he's not sure. However, it isn't hard to mistake a feather pattern or misjudge body size on a bird in flight over a distance.... it happens sometimes.... even to good hunters.

I KNOW the type of hunters you are refering to who purposefully shoot at protected species. I can assure you that they are a VERY, VERY small but unfortunately visable minorty of all hunters (including conservatives, like me). They are DEPLORED by the hunting community as a whole....because they make the rest of us look bad. Believe me, the vast majority of hunters would not think of purposefully shooting a protected species or shooting a species out of season or over bag limit. We care about nature and conservation.....More so, I would venture, then most urban folk....because we spend a great deal of our time in the wilder corners of our states..... and familiarity with nature cannot help but build abiding appreciation for it.... a legacy most of us would like to be able to pass on to our children.

By the way, Jean, the only people I've ever heard of shooting guns up in the air to celebrate New Years were idiot thugs and gang members who used to live in the poorer sections of New Orleans. They killed a tourist that way, once. I'm pretty sure they weren't "conservatives" by any stretch of the definition. Maybe in Kansas the demographics and political philosophies of the idiots are different.

I didn't say that they were conservatives, Pat; I said that anyone who'd applaud the killing of a protected species is an idiot; bit of a difference. Of course, most conservatives (and every hunter I've ever known) wants to protect the wilds and the wildlife, just as most liberals do. What I'm talking about are the wannabe Dirty Harrys who think "Hey! Guns are cool!" because they've seen too many movies and think safety rules (and environmental policies) are for wimps. They clap when a protected species is killed just because they know it will upset liberals, and they're for anything that upsets liberals. (Which I'm sure you're not. ;-)

Yes, it does matter if it's 30 yards or 30 feet. Wishy washy, see everything from every angle person that I am, I'd be far more sympathetic if it was thirty yards like the WH first said it was; it was around dusk, Cheney's sight isn't the best, and shadows are easily mistaken at that distance. From the depth of the pellets and the amount of ammunition Whittington got hit with, though, I'd say it was actually thirty feet. I'd still be sympathetic, but that means the WH's first statement was--as can be most kindly stated--"truthfully inoperative." and that makes me, (and many others) wonder; what else is the WH been "truthfully inoperative" about?

Amanda Marcotte makes the "30 yards or 30 feet?" point far more eloquently (and harshly.) than I have.

Maybe not, Tully, but as Pat correctly points out, my info, (and my link) came from Media Research Center. Bit of a difference. A nitpicking detail, I know, but as shown here, the law is made up of nitpicking details

You picked it off the Media Research Center site, but go back and look again at your very own link. MRC excerpted verbatim and directly from a MEDIA WATCH release. Including the MW header. That they acted as a relay doesn't mean they altered the story--they didn't. (Not that you can trust MRC either.) I don't make that kind of mistake--often. :-)

RE: 30 yards or 30 feet--the pattern spread and shot penetration indicates roughly thirty yards. At ten yards there just isn't that much spread, and the penetration is MUCH deeper. It could have been as close as 25 yards, or as far as 35--it depends on the choke used, which we don't know. Assuming Cheney was using a #3 (Modified) or #4 (Improved Modified) choke, the pattern indicates 30 yards +/- 10%.

At 30 feet even a load of #8 would PROBABLY be fatal. At ten feet it wouldn't even be a question--Whittington would be dead. An ounce of concentrated lead moving at 1200fps is just that--deadly--whether it's birdshot or buckshot. In fact, at ten feet you'd rather have the buckshot. It will tear you up bad, but at ten feet birdshot will shred you. 400 tiny pellets compared to 25 large ones.

As some-one who has hunted for most of his adult life (and a strong GOP supporter).... I can tell you that there is absolutely no excuse for what Cheney did .....NONE. Tully and any other hunters here will tell you the same.

Yep. I've hunted since I was 12, I'm a certified instructor in pistol, rifle, and shotgun, and I've taught Hunter Safety courses many times. There are reasons hunting accidents happen, but there are no excuses. But it almost always takes multiple errors for a nasty shotgun hunting accident--if just one person screws up, it's usually not an injury accident, unless they hurt themselves hunting alone. Running up to a point with the safety off and your finger inside the trigger guard and tripping, for example. Good way to commit suicide. (Many of those "accidents" ARE suicides, staged to spare the suicider's family.)

So you teach rigid adherence to the safety protocols, hoping that only one dumbass thing will happen, and it'll just be a warning scare. In this case Whittington supplied the extra bit of dumbass for Cheney's primary dumbass to cause the accident--but Cheney had the firing gun in hand, and what he shoots is his responsibility. First, last, always. Doesn't make Whittington any less dumbass, but doesn't supply any excuses for Cheney either.

The safety protocols were formulated on the theory that there WILL be slips, and that it will usually take multiple slips for them to add up to injury.

Oh, and the time of the shooting was about 5:30, and the sun was a good ways above the horizon. I checked that when I was in Dallas last week. It's stupid to hunt that late in the day for other reasons, namely that you'll be tired, and it's stupid to push yourself hunting when you're tired. Leads to accidents, doncha know....