Centerfield

To much is being made of this. If someone says to me "Merry Christmas" I answer them back with the same. If they say "Happy Holidays" then that is what I repeat.

Posted by: Ginifer at November 30, 2005 01:22 AM

Saying happy holidays instead of Merry Christmas is a flap about nothing. However, when schools start banning Christmas programs, this is over the edge. Furthermore, our city put up a Christmas tree. This was not a Holiday Tree. American Christian traditions should not be banned, because someone is offended by our Christmas season. Gosh, don't get me started about banning Christmas songs in schools. Take care.

Posted by: Mild Mannered Reporter at November 30, 2005 01:54 AM

As a Christian, I think "happy holidays" is a more appropriate greeting for businesses to use. Regardless of what the marketers tell us, Christmas is not about shopping. It's a religious holiday that should be celebrated in churches, not in malls.

Granted, it is in merchants' interest to clear out their inventory at the end of the year, but the least they could do is to have enough respect to not connect the promotion of rabid consumerism with Christmas.

That's my two cents.

Posted by: Bruce at November 30, 2005 01:54 AM

As an atheist, I still celebrate christmas. So I have no problem with people saying merry christmas to me. I don't see christmas as a very religious holiday. It is all about getting together with the family.

Christmas trees have nothing to do with religion, so we have one of those too.

Posted by: Bill at November 30, 2005 06:37 AM

I called this a month or so back. This "controversy" is an evergreen, it comes back every holiday season. IMO, the best thing to do is pretty much ignore it, let you conscience be your guide, and most importantly, lighten up.

Seems to me that one's approach to the holiday season should at least in part be guided by the need to safeguard one's mental health. Otherwise you end up in a brawl over the last shop vac during a day after TG sale. And don't laugh too hard, because I saw footage of a friday mall brawl.

IMO, one of the best features of the holiday season is the expression of good will to your fellow humans. That means lightening up, and giving other people the benefit of the doubt. I'll take well wishes in whatever form anyone wants to give 'em to me, and I hope others do the same.

I'm not interested in amping up the culture war during this month. But I do acknowledge that the push of absolute political correctness can be really trying. Not because I don't think people complaining about separation have no valid point to make, but because pushing the issue to the letter of absolute rectitude results in the wretched blandifying of our culture.

We can look forward to other holiday evergreens. We're about due for the "dangerous toys" list, and some sort of controversy about toys for tots and another about the salvation army. FWIW, the most deadly toy, year in and year out, though it never makes the list, is a balloon.

Posted by: bk at November 30, 2005 09:09 AM

I sent this to the editor of my local paper last year, maybe I need to make it a recurring theme:

A thought on the whole "Happy Holidays" vs. "Merry Christmas" thing. Since the Christmas decorations go up in October, the "Christmas" season encompasses Yom Kippur, Halloween, All Saints Day, Veterans Day, Thanksgiving, Ramadan, Hanukkah, Kwanza, Christmas Eve/Day and New Years Eve/Day. Maybe "Happy Holidays" isn't an assault on the Christian Faith, but an economy of words, something a merchant can use to greet a customer without the embarrassment of telling a Christian to have a "Happy Hanukkah" or a Muslim to have a "Happy Yom Kippur". The phrase is used because you never know what (if any) holiday the people you see celebrate. Jesus Christ (the reason for the season) said "Love Thy Neighbor" he didn't qualify it with "if he speaks as you do" or "if he believes as you do" or "if he votes as you do" or "if he is just like you". To quote Rodney King, Can't we all just get along?

Posted by: Scott at November 30, 2005 09:36 AM

I agree with all of the above, I think this is a perfect example of applying common sense to what is perceived by some to be an issue...however in a Centrist's eyes, isn't an issue at all. I can't begin to tell you how many emails I receive pertaining to the paranoia that Anti-Christians are ruining America because they are "forcing" things like Happy Holidays over Merry Christmas.
As a Christian and a Centrist, I am certainly not bothered by a holiday greeting.

I have to laugh at Rodney King being quoted in step with Jesus, that was funny.

Posted by: todd at November 30, 2005 09:52 AM

What Scott said--but he left Yule off the list, offending neopagans everywhere...

Posted by: Tully at November 30, 2005 10:10 AM

Roman-emperor-god symbolism laid upon Winter Solstice rituals mixed with commercial marketing images to glorify a Messiah - that is Christmas. All that, and egg nog to boot!

Posted by: WHQ at November 30, 2005 10:20 AM

But we have quit sacrificing virgins and lobbing their bodies into the branches. Maybe because we went to smaller trees and took 'em indoors, making it so much less practical. :-0

Some of us still burn the tree to mark the New Year, though. Outside, of course. Amazing how some customs come down through the centuries.

Posted by: Tully at November 30, 2005 10:44 AM

What Scott said, and what Tully said about including the Yule... and I'd like to include my own favorite holiday, the Winter Solstice. : )

Posted by: Ryan Somma at November 30, 2005 11:07 AM

But, I'm sure God is jumping with joy this morning as he celebrates the re-claiming of His Capitol Hill Christmas Tree.

"...and they found the babe wrapped in swallowing clothes and lying in a manger underneath a brightly lit Christmas tree that sparkled with icicles and was adorned with an Elmo ornament."

Posted by: AR at November 30, 2005 11:26 AM

Well I'll say it. It bothers me. But I have to admit I'm more bothered by Christmas becoming "the Marketing Holiday". Strange for a holiday celebrating the birth of poor child in a barn in a rural backwater.

Side comment: We have no problem saying "Happy Halloween" (and its a religious holiday too!). Although I note that the many churches that put together Halloween alternatives call them "Fall Festivals" or "Harvest Festivals". I'm surprised churches haven't tried to "reclaim" Halloween (although to be fair it would be up to the Catholic Church since its a Catholic celebration).

And second side comment: And we still call it Easter. (Even though it often covers other holidays such as Passover.)

Posted by: c3 at November 30, 2005 11:45 AM

Yabbut Halloween is both virtually secular and without well-known competition. Easter passes without much remarking, there's a huge difference in scale.

Neither Halloween nor easter can really be said to have a "season" in the same sense.

I am unbothered by any heartfelt salutation. But it especially escapes me why someone would be bothered by the generic, so long as it's still a hearfelt wish for good things. IMO, if you don't know, it's better not to assume. And it baffles me that some people seem to think they have some right to have everyone wish everyone else Merry Christmas, regardless of the various spiritual proclivities. If someone doesn't celebrate christmas, why would you want to wish them a merry one? Is the good-wish spreading being done for YOUR sake or for the wake of the person you're wishing well?

Here's the thing: if you are a true Christian, you can be pretty sure that giving someone a heartfelt salutation is supposed to be about the person getting the salutation: you're trying to be nice to someone else by sharing your good spirits. It's not supposed to be about YOU. If you insist that "merry christmas" is the only proper way to go about it, and wish it with a spirit that includes some aspect of confrontation, IMO you are missing the true spirit of the season. YMMV.

Posted by: bk at November 30, 2005 12:31 PM

If people say happy holidays to me, I say Merry Christmas back with a smile. Why? Because I say Merry Christmas to everyone with a smile!

Merry Christmas everyone!

Posted by: Susan at November 30, 2005 01:05 PM

Saying "happy holidays" as opposed to Merry Christmas is nothing new, I've been hearing it since I was a child, and there is even an old song which uses the phrase "happy holidays". The right wants to pretend it's something new and sinister. This supposed war on Christmans is being manufactured by the right to rally the troops, by that I mean the gullible and angry right wing suckers who listen to their radio and tv shows and who just wait for the opportunity to be outraged, and these people like O'Reilly thrive on divisivness and anger, they get their ratings by concocting this crap.

Posted by: Laura at November 30, 2005 01:05 PM

Saying "happy holidays" as opposed to Merry Christmas is nothing new, I've been hearing it since I was a child, and there is even an old song which uses the phrase "happy holidays". The right wants to pretend it's something new and sinister. This supposed war on Christmans is being manufactured by the right to rally the troops, by that I mean the gullible and angry right wing suckers who listen to their radio and tv shows and who just wait for the opportunity to be outraged, and these people like O'Reilly thrive on divisivness and anger, they get their ratings by concocting this crap.

Posted by: Laura at November 30, 2005 01:06 PM

"To much is being made of this. If someone says to me "Merry Christmas" I answer them back with the same. If they say "Happy Holidays" then that is what I repeat."

Not me, I always say Merry Christmas. I'm not a prick about it, but I think "Happy Holidays" is nothing more than political correctness run rampant. We've been saying Merry Christmas for hundreds of years, why do we have to change now. Screw 'em if they don't like it.

Posted by: Mike at November 30, 2005 01:11 PM

Did I say "swallowing" clothes? It's "swaddling" clothes...my sinus meds must be getting to me today.

Posted by: AR at November 30, 2005 01:23 PM

"Screw 'em if they don't like it."

There's a nice Christian perspective on the issue. Hilarious!

Posted by: WHQ at November 30, 2005 01:27 PM

Mike it is not political correctness to say happy holidays. As I've said, I've been hearing that since I was a child, it's nothing new. Don't get me wrong, I have absolutely no objection to someone saying Merry Chrismas to me even though I don't celebrate it, but people ARE making a big deal out of this whole happy holidays thing.

Posted by: Laura at November 30, 2005 01:27 PM

Mike it is not political correctness to say happy holidays. As I've said, I've been hearing that since I was a child, it's nothing new. Don't get me wrong, I have absolutely no objection to someone saying Merry Chrismas to me even though I don't celebrate it, but people ARE making a big deal out of this whole happy holidays thing.

Posted by: Laura at November 30, 2005 01:33 PM

What? No Io Saturnalia?

Why does everybody hate Romans? ;-)

Posted by: Blue Jean at November 30, 2005 01:54 PM

I did have the winter solstice in the original, but the editor would only accept so many words. Therefore, the winter solstice and my parents anniversary (somewhat important to my sister and I) had to get dropped..

We could always go Stallone about it - Adrian: It was Thanksgiving. Rocky: Yeah, to you, but to me it’s Thursday, right?

Posted by: Scott at November 30, 2005 02:20 PM

As usual, I agree with Brian's nuanced analysis.

Saying "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas" is just the polite thing to do if you don't know the other person's spiritual proclivities. Otherwise, to me, it seems like a very spiritually chauvinistic thing to do -- like I don't care whether you're a Christian or not, I will address you according to MY religious leanings.

If it's done innocently and with good intent, no big deal. And perhaps a case could be made that since we're overwhelmingly a Christian nation -- by demographics -- it could be the default salutation, until the other person's spiritual leanings were proven otherwise.

However, people who wish to take that tact have to
(1)not to be bothered if in Jerusalem they were to be wished "Happy Hannukah"
(2)really consider how they would feel if they were Jewish, and people always assumed otherwise during the Holidays.

In sum, and on reflection, "Happy Holidays" is just more polite and more inclusive. If we want to try to bring the whole nation together during the Holiday Season, we shouldn't implicitly make non-Christians feel as if they are outsiders. That's not very American.

On the other side of the equation, I don't have a problem with relgious music in schools, I just think there should be a balance of secular and religious music in loose accordance with the proportions of religious affiliations within that school. At least one Hannukah song, for instance. The problem with that, I feel, is that too many people would object. Some Conservative Christians wouldn't feel comfortable singing Jewish carols, I imagine, etc.

That's the real underlying problem here. Some Conservative Christians want to have their religion included in public ceremony, but don't accord the same privilege to rival religions. If they would fight just as hard for the inclusion of Buddhism in Hawaii public education as they do for Christianity in the 48 states, I would be more sympathetic to their cause. Along with Brian, I'm not a fan of the blandness that can accompany secularization. OTOH, I can't support the chauvinistic, culturally insensitive demands of some conservative Christians. Christianity is not a requirement of American citizenship!

I think if the religious would take their religious models of the Divine a little less seriously, if they would take the view that the primary purpose of religion is to facilitate virtue and communion with the Divine, we would be far better off. Christians could still believe that Jesus was literally God, but just not hold that God would punish the rest of humanity for eternity for holding a differing metaphysical viewpoint. I think that's a real difficulty here.

If someone takes the view the only way to God is through belief in Christ, and that everyone else is screwed, that seems to me to be an inescapably hostile and exclusionary viewpoint. How can one support the first amendment if one feels that by doing so, one allows the eternal damnation of others? I know that many who hold the above belief are well-meaning and kind, but it seems that their theology is radically opposed to many of the modern, Enlightenment principles on which this country is founded. If that view could evaporate, and conservative Christians could more easily embrace other religious viewpoints -- or at least not believe that others would be damned forever -- I think a lot of this tension would evaporate. IOW, conservative Christians could believe that Christianity is more true than other religions but appreciate why others might come to differing conclusions and just trust that God isn't such a hard-ass that he would decide someone's eternal fate on the basis of what religious model they found most plausible during a short and often difficult life. IOW, belief in Christ could be viewed by them as a benefit to religious life, but not a requirement.

Sorry to go on this seeming tangent, but I think these kinds of exclusionary viewpoints really drive a lot of the culture wars.

It's true that atheists need to cool off as well; however, one has to wonder if the fervor of the atheists is not aided by the fervor of the Christian right.

Posted by: Adam at November 30, 2005 02:22 PM

Some Conservative Christians want to have their religion included in public ceremony, but don't accord the same privilege to rival religions. If they would fight just as hard for the inclusion of Buddhism in Hawaii public education as they do for Christianity in the 48 states, I would be more sympathetic to their cause.

Obviously, I don't speak for all of Christianity, conservative or otherwise, but I have no problem with that other than I really don't expect public institutions to celebrate my religious holiday. I'm just bothered by the generic nature of "Happy Holidays". I'm not going to boycott any store over it, I'm not going to change my vote over it. I don't expect someone of a different faith to wish me "Merry Christmas".

However, people who wish to take that tact have to (1)not to be bothered if in Jerusalem they were to be wished "Happy Hannukah" (2)really consider how they would feel if they were Jewish, and people always assumed otherwise during the Holidays.

In sum, and on reflection, "Happy Holidays" is just more polite and more inclusive.

OK, Adam just to be clear, then isn't wishing someone "Happy Hannukah" "exclusive"?

Please, understand this is NOT that big of deal for me just a minor irritant. But somehow, we've gotten to the point were wishing someone a "Merry Christmas" is "exclusive" (read "wrong"). Why any more wrong than wishing any specific group joy during their special celebration?

Posted by: c3 at November 30, 2005 03:37 PM

I just wish everyone a Happy Festivus!

Posted by: jim in austin at November 30, 2005 04:52 PM

Chris,

As usual, I probably address too many issues and don't clearly enough distinguish between them. I wasn't particularly addressing your comment, more the sentiment that some have expressed that they will say "Merry Christmas" no matter what and to no matter whom. I think Ann Coulter compared saying "Merry Christmas" to saying "F U." Obviously, no one here came close to that, but I felt a few breezes in that direction.

Obviously, I don't speak for all of Christianity, conservative or otherwise, but I have no problem with that other than I really don't expect public institutions to celebrate my religious holiday.

Well, you have a moderate flavor to you, Chris :)
I was just saying that I'd be cool with Christmas carols in school as long as those who wanted them would be comfortable with singing Jewish music and as long as some secular music was included as well. Meaning the music sung should reflect the diversity of the student body.

However, the hurdle that I noticed was that a lot of people aren't comfortable with embracing such cultural diversity. And then I further went on my "eternal damnation" tangent. I really tried not to be strident, but I know I didn't fully pull that off. But it is a serious reflection. To me, if I were to take the exclusive claims of Christianity seriously, I would always feel a bit nervous around non-Christians. You're a very laid-back kind of Christian, but if you believe as you do, I don't quite see how one could NOT be thinking in the back of their mind -- poor secularist, or poor Jew, they're going to suffer in some form or another for all eternity because of their religious error. That sort of belief seems to either enjoin a polite abdication of duty (i.e. I will be polite even though doing so puts contemporary societal standards above the other's eternal fate) or if taken fully seriously a non-stop attempt at proslyetization. 80 years is nothing in comparison to eternity.

So I just think this kind of thinking is dangerous, and I think if Christians could adopt a more moderate theological stance, it would resolve this cognitive dissonance and promote public harmony. It wouldn't necessitate relinquishing the divinity of Christ, it would just require either upping the efficacy of Christ's sacrifice (i.e. universal salvation) or viewing Christ as a Divine incarnation in whom belief was only beneficial not obligatory. I get into this only because I think the traditional beliefs, if taken at face value, necessarily enjoin all the sorts of things the Christian right attempt to do. If traditional views are right, it seems perfectly rational to attempt to establish a theocracy. What do things of this world matter in comparison to eternity? All these rather scary consequences of traditional belief make me doubt the original principles of Christianity -- that maybe the early formulators of Christian doctrine made a few errors.

OK, Adam just to be clear, then isn't wishing someone "Happy Hannukah" "exclusive"?

My line of reasoning was not as clear as it ought to have been. I was signaling a potential willingness to accept "Merry Christmas" as the default greeting on the grounds of demographics and preserving cultural heritage. However, I could only do so if those proposing such a move would be okay with my (1) and my (2).

But then I thought about my (1) and my (2), and on further reflection, changed my opinion back. A bit of in-comment waffling. Still, in my view, those who want to argue that Merry Christmas be the default greeting need to be okay with (1) and (2).

I understand your frustration over the blandness of Happy Holidays. But I'm not sure of any alternative which would work without assuming the beliefs of your interlocutor. I would be cool if everyone were to be laid back about it: if minority religious viewpoints just wouldn't care if they were improperly addressed. I'd still be a little nervous about the marginalization of Jews and Muslims, though. But when some conservative Christian organizations get all aggressive about it, I tend to push back especially because I think their theology is very bad for humanity.

It's funny, I probably support civic religion more than you do, but I feel morally obliged to prevent orthodox Christian views from advancing in the public sphere because I feel they necessarily enjoin very harmful practices. It's that particular interpretation of Christianity which seemed to enable a lot of Christianity's greatest evils -- religious wars and what not. The more laidback Eastern religions seem to have a better track record because they emphasize behavior over belief.

I'm not anti-Christian; I'm anti-orthodox interpretation. My mother is basically a universal salvationist Episcopalian and I don't have a problem with that.

You have to admit that if we all were unitarian universalists we'd have fewer of these problems.

Posted by: Adam at November 30, 2005 04:57 PM

But somehow, we've gotten to the point were wishing someone a "Merry Christmas" is "exclusive" (read "wrong"). Why any more wrong than wishing any specific group joy during their special celebration

It's not. But it just should be limited to those whom you have good reason to believe are Christian. If you wanted to wish everyone a "Merry Christmas, Happy Hannukah and Happy Holidays," that would be cool.

I don't mind "Merry Christmas" if it's done without reflection, but anyone who wants to advocate its use universally needs to do some thinking.

Posted by: Adam at November 30, 2005 05:04 PM

I don't expect someone of a different faith to wish me "Merry Christmas"

Why not? If I knew you were Christian, it makes sense -- it's more specific and more meaningful. I was talking about the reverse where someone just assumes that everyone is Christian.

Posted by: Adam at November 30, 2005 05:07 PM

As a Christian, I am troubled by the increasing amount of very real secularism in our culture.

Last I checked, religion in America is in the midst of an historic surge. Everything from megachurches to politics to The Passion of the Christ to Left Behind books shows our religiousity on a tremendous upswing.

Posted by: Oberon at November 30, 2005 09:37 PM

With all the other much more important issues why waste time on what is basically the current fodder on right wing red meat media?

Because November is ratings month. It's effin SWEEPS. All they want to do is suck in listeners and viewers to pump up their falling ratings. Hence the red meat. (O'Reilly is taking a big hit on the Arbitron ratings for his radio program although I think his TV ratings are still ok)

What a waste of electricity.

Posted by: Marcus at November 30, 2005 09:38 PM

With all the other much more important issues why waste time on what is basically the current fodder on right wing red meat media?

Okay, drum roll please...Marcus and I are in agreement. There's another factor involved here though as well...fundraising. Let's face it what could stir up a far right Christian Conservative more than being told they were losing the most sacred of all Holidays?

To borrow from Evita "Money, money, money, money, money, money, money, money...and the money kept rolling in..." I'd sing it for ya, but....lol...

Posted by: AR at November 30, 2005 11:26 PM

Merry Christmas to all. Now, what in the world are we talking about here? Is Merry Christmas somehow demeaning people? Good golly, if I read the First Amendment correctly, freedom of speech and freedom of religion is guaranteed.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances".

Even though I belong to one of the most liberal Christian denominations and support most civil libertarian ideas, I find it real disturbing that conservative Christians are somehow evil for demanding a voice in the public square.

Furthermore, a review of early documents and historical data will strongly suggest that America's development and our participative democracy was influenced by real conservative Christian thought.

In conclusion, conservative Christians have a constitutional right to express their displeasure with any government action that limits their free speech rights or their religious beliefs. The public square belongs to everyone, including conservative Christians. Merry Christmas.

Posted by: Mild Mannered Reporter at December 1, 2005 06:47 AM

In conclusion, conservative Christians have a constitutional right to express their displeasure with any government action that limits their free speech rights or their religious beliefs.

Strawman. No where did I see anyone saying Christians don't have the right to express themselves. No one is outlawing Christianity. No one is saying Christians don't have the right to complain about "Happy Holidays," and suggesting such is merely an attempt to turn Christians in to persecuted victims and rally their base.

It works both ways. I grew up in Virginia Beach, with the C.B.N. and the A.R.E... Pat Robertson and Edgar Casey. CBN threw a fit when Virginia Beach put recycling bins within 100 yards of the ARE as a violation of the separation of church and state. No nativity scenes on government property if other religions can't do similar.

Christians are not being persecuted when businesses use the more inclusive "Happy Holidays." They are not being shunned when Science Pedagogies exclude supernatural explanations for empirical observations. They want us to believe in their victimization so they may promote their agenda, which is opening new avenues for proselytizing to the unconverted.

In Conclusion: There's nothing wrong with Christianity or any other religion, only people who let their sensitivity ruin the season for themselves and everyone else.

Happy Holidays Everyone!

Posted by: Ryan Somma at December 1, 2005 08:20 AM

Abel, I agree with Marcus as well. Any controversy that repeats with such predictable regularity WILL be scheduled in as a stock button-poking topic. The holidays are a very tough time to keep ratings up.

And it's always about fundraising. Every topic, every day.

Posted by: Tully at December 1, 2005 09:49 AM

Just let your conscience be your guide, let your salutations be heartfelt, and spread some good cheer.

The biggest threat to the spirit of the season is that we all hesitate because we come to worry that our form of salutation is some sort of litmus test. If the saluation is heartfelt, you pass. If anyone one else complains about your heartfelt saluation, THEY flunk.

Posted by: bk at December 1, 2005 10:36 AM

Mild Mannered,

Of course, conservative Christians can say "Merry Christmas" all they want. I don't oppose a residual civic religion, nor do I oppose a multiculturalist inclusion of religion within schools. But seriously, if one, after reflection, chooses to wish Merry Christmas to a mixed audience isn't that kind of like saying, "I don't care if there are non-Christians here because their existence isn't even worth acknowledging." I think it's fine to wish "Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to all" as this country is demographically predominantly Christian. But honestly, was your above invocation of "Merry Christmas" truly heartfelt or was it more a jab at the "PC crowd" Honestly?

I'm not a PC person; it's just seems kind of rude to assume that everyone is Christian without even a token acknowledgement that that might not be the case -- why not tack on "Happy Holidays" to "Merry Christmas"? I agree with BK that it's the sincerity that counts, but if the wishing of "Merry Christmas" comes with some gleeful desire to offend liberal sensibilities, I can't consider that truly in the spirit. Again, it comes close to Ann Coulter's equating "Merry Christmas" with the spirit of saying "F U."

My other tangent on conservative Christians just reflects my deep-seated dissatisfaction with the doctrine of eternal perdition for non-Christians. Don't you think that a dropping of that doctrine would promote religious harmony and reduce atheistic fervor? It's one thing to say you believe religion your religion is better than others -- in one sense, that's rational, because why else would you be a member of that religious persuasion if you didn't think that -- but if you go so far as to think that God will damn the infidels for eternity, I think you've crossed a line.

Posted by: Adam at December 1, 2005 12:16 PM

Being a moderate Christian, I don't really understand the serious nature of the "Merry Christmas - Happy Holiday" flap. However, after reading several liberal blogs and listening to secularists expound on the "Merry Christmas and Happy Holiday" controversy, I wonder. I am beginning to think that there really is a culture war.

From my experience in undergraduate and graduate school, theories were strongly advanced that Christianity, celebrating Christmas, the Founding Fathers, traditional values, and American history were bad somehow. And, atheism, secularism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Socialism, Communism, and Marxism were good.

Sometimes I think that most professors want to return to the turbulent 60s and 70s when Jane Fonda said, "I would think that if you understood what Communism was, you would hope, you would pray on your knees, that we would someday become communists." -- Michigan State University, 1970

I attended several colleges and got the same indoctrination in a variety of courses. So, it appears that this is wide-spread today. My arguments with professors for a more balanced approach to competing views and the subject matter usually caused quite a stir in class. Society in general seems to be responding to this one-sided academic environment.

In conclusion, the "Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays" flap may not be about greeting someone. It may be symptomatic of an ongoing battle of ideas. Merry Christmas.

Posted by: Mild Mannered Reporter at December 2, 2005 05:19 AM

I agree there's a culture war, but I don't think there's anything wrong with that. Take for instance you're lumping the "Founding Fathers" in with "Christianity" and "Traditional Values." There was nothing traditional about the FF, who rejected traditionalism in favor of enlightenment values. They also rejected Christianity in government, while all of Europe required Christian faith in order to take office.

Yes, the culture wars rage on. Secularists, like myself, argue for separation of church and state, while Christian's, like yourself, try to lump christianity in with democracy (when in fact Christianity is more closely aligned with Communism ideologically) and Pluralism with Marxism (when Pluralism requires Democracy to thrive).

That's some clever rhetoric, and I have a responsibility to call you on it.

Posted by: Ryan Somma at December 2, 2005 09:13 AM

In conclusion, the "Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays" flap may not be about greeting someone. It may be symptomatic of an ongoing battle of ideas.

Thanks for helping to make my point, MMR. It IS symptomatic of a battle of ideas. But the battle is really between the partisans on the fringes. The most fundamental of indoctrinating christians are not representative of mainstream but conservative-leaning cultural views. Nor are indoctrinating lefty college prof ideologues representative of mainstream liberal-leaning cultural views. Yet they are dominating the dialogue by being noisy and relentless.

Here's the thing. For the vast majority of everyday Americans on the streets, in the shops, at the malls, at the schools, libraries, and town halls, it really IS about greeting someone, about simply wanting to find a good way to express heartfelt salutations to fellow townfolk, shoppers, parents, colleagues, co-workers, etc. And most of these everyday people really don't want the way they choose to wish people well to become subject to some political litmus test.

I'm reminded of a Seinfeld episode. Jerry is in the dressing room before a tonight show appearance when his and George's parents, who are visiting to wish Jerry good luck, begin a foolish argument. And Jerry says "I know this doesn't look like work to you, but if you could please conduct the psychopath convention out in the hall...."

I feel the same way.

Posted by: bk at December 2, 2005 09:21 AM

Ryan and BK, you make some good points. I disagree, but I understand you positions. However, Ryan, tell me you are not serious about advancing your argument notetd below. If you are, we really have no rational basis for further dialogue on this issue.

". . . while Christian's, like yourself, try to lump christianity in with democracy (when in fact Christianity is more closely aligned with Communism ideologically)".

Take care and I wish you the best.

Posted by: Mild Mannered Reporter at December 2, 2005 02:47 PM

I rest my case...

Olbermann: "But tonight's winner: Bill O'Reilly! You know this whole attack on Christmas nonsense that he made up? Some sort of fantasy in which the liberals are coming to your town to force you and your family to not call it Christmas anymore? The fantasy that we can't say "Merry Christmas," but you can only say "Happy Holidays"? The thing designed to stir up religious hatred and paranoia in this country? Guess what they're selling over at the Fox News online store? The Fox News "Holiday" ornament! And the O'Reilly Factor "Holiday" ornament. Who is trying to change "Merry Christmas" into "Happy Holidays"? Bill O'Reilly, that's who. Today's worst person in the world! (Media Matters for the transcript)

Midia mMatters has the video link

Posted by: Marcus at December 4, 2005 03:03 PM

Marcus, would those be the Christmas ornaments seen here? Because they're not labelled "holiday" ornaments anymore. They're labelled as "Christmas" ornaments. And the gift shop section is the "Christmas and Chanukah Collection". Seems that the whining of Kos and Kompany pushed them to it...odd, that. Get what you want, then ridicule those who give it to you. If that's what passes for GOTCHA with Olbermann, maybe he needs to check the expiration date on his prescription bottle.

Is Fox under some onus to promote Xmas, as compared to acknowledging that there's more than one religion involved in the somewhat secularized holiday, and to pitch merchandise to the spectrum rather than just Xians, simply because O'Reilly rants (who isn't the whole of FoxNews network by any stretch) about people being condemned for saying "Merry Christmas" instead of "Happy Holidays"?

I think you've actually managed to find something even sillier than this seasonally scheduled "controversy," and I thank you for bringing it to our attention.

In the meantime, I'm PO'd at Fox for once again slighting the Euro-pagans who gave us the pre-Christian Yule tree tradition, and those nice old pre-Christian Romans who instituted winter solstice gift-giving for Saturnalia. And I want to thank the Holy Roman Empire for bringing the best of the two traditions together, instead of the worst. I mean, some folks might find it fun to exchange sacrificially slaughtered corpses as orgy gifts for the solstice, but I like the way it actually worked out better.

Not that we got away from the Saturnalia mass orgies and the Yule sacrifices entirely. Olbermann and O'Reilly are doing their part for symbolic sacrifices and burnings, and while the Saturnalia orgies may be gone, we still have the office Xmas party.

Posted by: Tully at December 4, 2005 05:15 PM

Just to make sure I'm not misunderstood--I still think Marcus hit it dead-on with his sweeps comment. Especially as concerns Fox. I think O'Reilly's the wrong target at Fox, though.

Posted by: Tully at December 4, 2005 07:22 PM

True, Bill O'reilly by himself does not represent the whole of Fox News, but the "war on Christmas" meme is actively being pushed by Fox anchors O'reilly, John Gibson, Neal Cavuto and Sean Hannity as well as frequent guests such as (God help us) Ann Coulter, Jerry Falwell, Michelle Malkin, David Limbaugh, etc.

A good example of taking a theme to its absurd conclusion is a recent edition of the Fox stock market show "Bulls & Bears" which posed the question: "Economic Disaster if Liberals win the "war on Christmas"?" and then had 4 panelists debate the idea as if it had some validity.

Not just Fair. But Fair AND Ballanced!

Season's Greetings!

Posted by: Drew at December 5, 2005 12:10 AM

Yeah, I caught a snippet of Fox fanning the culture war flames.

Quite possibly we here at centerfield could get some mileage out of culture war "draft deferrment" cards that protect people from getting caught up in this crapola when either side tries to enlist us.

Clearly, the holiday season is a big recruitment time for wingnuts on both sides. That means its a good time for us to recruit people who think live is too short to let other people convince you your panties ought to be in a bunch.

Posted by: bk at December 5, 2005 09:22 AM

Olbermann's doing his part to keep the crap levels even--not that that's a recommendation for MSNBC. We all know where to go to hear the wingnuts pretend to be objective journalists. But where do we go for objective journalism?

Posted by: Tully at December 5, 2005 09:49 AM

transcript 12/1 Countdown
OLBERMANN: But the winners, FOX News again. Remember last night, we told you that despite this phony baloney story they concocted about liberals trying to replace Christmas recognitions with the generic happy holidays? They're own Web site was selling Bill O'Reilly Holiday ornaments for your holiday tree instead of Bill O'Reilly Christmas ornaments for your Christmas tree? Today they change it. The Web site now identifies them as Christmas ornaments.Hypocritical sons of—oh, well.

This holiday time of year, let's be forgiving. Let's just all be happy in the knowledge that somebody is finally going to hang Bill O'Reilly's ornaments from a tree somewhere! FOX News Channel, today's worst persons in the world! "

Unfortunately this flames of Christmas war is on local and national talk radio...
Sussman on KSFO, a waste of oxygen and electricity if there ever was one, was ranting about it for 2 days straight. Bill, Sean, Rush and all.. what are they raising besides Cain?

Meanwhile, the very liberal Bernie Ward on KGO raises well over 300 thousand dollars for the annual Christmas charities drive. - St. Anthony's Dining Room, St. Vincent DePaul on Oakland, and 2 others.

sigh

Don't They know it's Christmas?

Posted by: Marcus at December 5, 2005 04:17 PM

Let's just all be happy in the knowledge that somebody is finally going to hang Bill O'Reilly's ornaments from a tree somewhere!

I might have used another word in place of "ornaments," but hey, I can drink to that! :-)

Posted by: Tully at December 5, 2005 05:25 PM

eggnog and rum....heavy on the rum

Posted by: Marcus at December 5, 2005 05:38 PM