Centerfield

I think a lot of the blame/anger over Katrina is being driven by a “what was the point of creating the department of homeland security”. We were supposed to be preparing for the next 9/11, but when nature handed us the equivalent (or worse), well............ Just for the record this post isn't about Bush, it's about bureaucracy.

I thing people who are outside the federal government need to understand what has gone on inside the federal government the last couple of years (or more specifically in the DOD, where I work).

In a word, it's called opportunism.

From the lowest base of the pyramid (were I work), to the very peak, there has been a feeding frenzy of pork and power. From the legitimate attempts to be ready for every possible contingency to the petty “empire building”. There is only so much money. If it is not spent wisely you end up being prepared for nothing.

I've been calling them 9/11 bullies for a couple of years now. People who were given a little bit of power because of 9/11 then proceeded to abuse it.

Example: (as explained to me by the person in charge of building repair and maintenance)

In the building were I work there is a large chiller connected to the air conditioning system. The only thing going into and out of the unit is a closed loop water pipe. While the pipe does go into the building it doesn't empty into the HVAC system. Putting poison gas or a bio-weapon into the chiller or pipe would have no effect on the people in the building. Air intake is on top of the building behind a secure access point. Beside which we are on an Army base surrounded by barbwire and patrolled by security guards. Heck, some mornings I have trouble getting onto the base, and I have the proper I.D. Not to mention the alligator infested swamps that partially surrounds the place (Al-qaeda, meet Al-ligator).

A newly inflated security guard came and insisted that we have a contractor build a razor wire topped fence around the chiller. The building maintenance tech tried to explain what a silly idea that was. However the general had been given money to “improve building security” and by damn that money was going to be spent.

Of course the really ironic part of this boondoggle is that the exterior doors to the building are so rickety that you could pull them apart with one hand. (The building is only 10 years old but it was built by a low bid contractor.)

If your wondering where some of the money to strengthen the levees around New Orleans went, its sitting around the chiller in back of my building.

What I've noticed on a wide variety of blogs is that those complaining the loudest about criticism from the Left vis a vis New Orleans are invariably pro-Bush partisans.

What amazes me is how many of them use patently political arguments to denounce the "playing politics" by critics of this administration's handling of the relief effort. It's like they're completely blind to their own partisanship.

What I've noticed on a wide variety of blogs is that those complaining the loudest about criticism from the Left vis a vis New Orleans are invariably pro-Bush partisans.

The requirement for being a "pro-Bush partisan" being the uttering of any complaint about the Left. GMAFB. Yeah, the righties are out there blamestorming and "redirecting" as well, but the truly psychotic and insane stuff is coming from the left right now. The twin BDS's are in full bloom--Bush Derangement Syndrome and Bush Defense Syndrome. Both are pretty clueless.

I've got another full shift to pull at the local OEP office, my fifth in the last three days, so I'll be brief.

Most of the blamestorming is utter politics, and bears little resemblance to what the reality is. Most of the people on all sides who are the noisiest and quickest to point fingers know absolutely NOTHING relevant, and absolutely NOTHING about the realities of emergency or disaster response. You are hearing a massive outpouring of nothing but angst and partisanship, directed at whomever the speaker hates, not anything like the truth.

NOLA had an evacuation plan. They didn't follow it. They had the resources and buses and authority to clear the city. They didn't use them. They assumed the levees would hold. They didn't. FEMA also assumed the levees had survived, and set up shop in NOLA Monday before the rain stopped--and were drowned out of their base in hours, costing nearly a day's delay in response. By the time the logistics routes into the area began to open up, New Orleans was flooded and the interior of the city unreachable.

The disaster area is 90 thousand square miles, an area the size of Great Britain with Delaware and Rhode Island and Los Angeles and New York City all thrown together, and all the news you're hearing is about 180 square miles (two-tenths of one percent) of it. In the rest of that area, things are going pretty well (for an unavoidable mass disaster) considering the scale and scope of the hit. But all you see in the media seems to be NOLA.

Apparently the only reason Nagin ordered the mandatory evacuation on Sunday was that Bush called both Nagin and Blanco on Saturday and begged for it. Chew on that one for a bit while you're blamestorming.

Damn near every city in the nation is having food and clothing and money drives this weekend. Do something useful. Go help 'em out.

Rick,

I think that you have giving conservative ideology too much credit. It cannot be a foundation for running government as it is currently described by most of the GOP. i.e. "Government cannot do anything right" once you make that the governing principle you will end up with diasters like NOLA.

Putting people who believe this in charge of government is like appointing communists to the Chamber of Commerce, it is just not going to work.

Dr. Biobrain had a great post along these lines:

Republicans will once again be seen as a permanent a minority party for decades to come. And that is their proper place. Power unchecked is a bad thing, and Republicans will do well as an opposition party. It's their natural inclination, and where their heart really is. They need to act as a proper check to Democrat ambitions, and help keep them honest. Democrats are a poor minority, as too many of them go off and do their own thing. And a minority party just can't do much with a lot of strays. But Republicans are good at picking off strays, and this ability is helpful for taking out Democrat bills which aren't mainstream enough. And that's what we need. People who believe in government trying to make it work, and people who oppose government acting as the opposition. That just makes sense, and that is the balance that we will return to shortly.

That reminds me of the P.J. O'Rouke quote; "Conservatives are the people who say government doesn't work, then get elected to prove it." ;-)

The requirement for being a "pro-Bush partisan" being the uttering of any complaint about the Left. GMAFB.

G-Yourself-AFB, Tully. I didn't say that, you did. I was talking about specific bloggers and commenters who I know damn well are Bush partisans.

From what I've seen, and I don't claim that it's all-encompassing, folks on the Left who are criticizing the federal response aren't claiming that doing so isn't political. It obviously is and it'd be both stupid and dishonest to claim otherwise.

For the most part what I'm seeing is the same thing I've seen in the past where folks on the Right draw highly arbitrary and illogical lines so as to make it seem as if THEY are above the fray when the patently obvious fact is that they merely inhabit the opposing battleline and are matching political statement for political statement.

Just for the record, so that you hopefully won't feel the need to read volumes into this that aren't here... I'm not saying that the rhetoric of the Left is better, more appropriate, more helpful or any other adjective which one might wish to use. I'm saying that they're being more HONEST with themselves about what they're saying.

Bush is not the only one who looks bad in this. The Democratic mayor of New Orleans is not Giuliani. The Democratic governor of LA has looked overwhelmed as well, and her encouragement to shoot to kill looters did not seem appropriate to the situation IMHO, but rather an overcompensation for prior failure.

The only person who has impressed me so far is the mayor of Houston, whoever that is. Besides opening the Astrodome, Houston has welcomed NOLA students into its school system.

lesseee, I'm one of more than 50,000 people who live month to month in NO. I make less than a thousand bucks a month. It's the end of the month I have no extra money for bus, car, train, plane whatever. Savings? You gotta be kidding.
I asked my boss for an advance but the asshole said that if I didn't show up for work tomorrow I'm out of a job. And if I can make it out where do I go? How will I pay for a place to stay?

That was the pretty typical reason why a lot of people didn't leave New Orleans despite the evacuation order. If Bush was really concerned he would have gotten the shadow of its former self FEMA to commandeer any kind of transport to get people out of there. Get every single school and mass transit bus, get every plane, helicopter or fast ferry boat down there. FEMA - a joke run by an idiot who has no experience in disaster relief. (FEMA under Clinton was effective and efficient.)

As it is when you're poor you have to deal with the now of economic reality. Someone telling you you gotta leave when you don't the means to rings pretty hollow. Did Bush offer any funds? troops? any transportation? any help at all? I bet not.

Seems to me more than a few people have either forgotten what it's like to live on an extremely limited budget or they never had to for any real length of time in their lives. To criticize thousands of poor people, black and white and whatever, for not getting out of the way while they themselves type from the comfort of their 3 bedroom home with DSL line is pure ****

The only person who has impressed me so far is the mayor of Houston, whoever that is.

He's Bill White, by the way. And he's a fine Democrat.

Seems to me more than a few people have either forgotten what it's like to live on an extremely limited budget or they never had to for any real length of time in their lives. To criticize thousands of poor people, black and white and whatever, for not getting out of the way while they themselves type from the comfort of their 3 bedroom home with DSL line is pure ****

I haven't forgotten. I've lived month to month my entire adult life. Ex-addict, college drop-out, single dad w/two teenage daughters and have never received a dime in CS, driving a 9 year old car. For the last few months I've been typing via a DSL line. But, it's from the comfort of a small, old two-bedroom apartment with leaky faucets. Last year I made the most money I've ever earned... a little over 41k. My sole savings are in a 401-K. Not exactly quickly convertable in an emergency. These are the good times for me. I've been in much more limited financial straits earlier in life.

Yeah... I can definitely relate.

I think Tully makes important points. Most of us have absolutely no idea what a good response to such a disaster would be like, so we have no idea how to guage this response.

I think that the current administration is terrible, but I just don't think we know enough yet to make an informed judgment about how much of this is or isn't their fault.

I think we have to wait for some considered judgments by experts on this one.

That having been said, my untutored gut reaction is that our response was alarmingly slow and anemic. But, again, I realize that I'm not knowledgeable enough to make a useful judgment here.

Rick-

the federal response seemed slow and clueless to me - but the municipal and state response seemed non-existant. It was local authorities' responsibility to arrange and carry out evacuations, and the apparent sum total of their plan worked out to be "go the the Superdome/Convention Center and rot there."

I say "seemed", because at the moment I don't know anywhere near the full story.

When it's time to figure out what went wrong here, I hope you at least look at the local/state picture, instead of focussing exclusively on FEMA. You write as though local authorities had no responsibility or power at all.

I think Winston and I were separated at birth. What he said. The only thing will add is somewhat of a reiteration of David's last point. There's plenty of blame to go around from the bottom to the top and on both sides of the political divide. It'll take a while to sort it out, and hopefully someone can give us all the straight poop at some point.

I believe one thing has stood out starkly for the whole world to see in the past week, and that's just how unprepared and vulnerable this country has become, and how little the federal government seems to care. That's as big a disgrace as having those people in New Orleans without food or water for days in that horrid heat and in those conditions. HLS director said relief was kept out by the flooding. They could have dropped food to those people from helicoptors.

Whether it is or isn't up to the government to rush in and take care of people, that's what's always happened before. I know things have changed dramatically in the past five years, but the majority of the people haven't a clue because everything going on in DC doesn't show up on the TV like it used to.

When worried about another terrorist attack, people wanted to know what to do to be prepared, and we were instructed to go buy duct tape and plastic sheeting - and go see a movie, go shopping - act like everything was normal. Oh, yes. There's also a webpage that tells you more - if you happen to have a computer. I think we've seen how stupid that "preparedness" is.

What happens if/when the threat of warming oceans, melting ice, and worse storms than Katrina cause coastal flooding we've been warned is coming? How many people living in other coastal areas will be any better prepared than the residents of the south? I think it's time for some major programs teaching people how to prepare and when and where to evacuate, and so much more to survive.

I believe one thing has stood out starkly for the whole world to see in the past week, and that's just how unprepared and vulnerable this country has become, and how little the federal government seems to care. That's as big a disgrace as having those people in New Orleans without food or water for days in that horrid heat and in those conditions.

I agree, GS. More to the point, I think that the disgrace in New Orleans directly underscores our vulnerability. None other than former Speaker Newt Gingrich said as much a couple days ago:

"I think it puts into question all of the Homeland Security and Northern Command planning for the last four years, because if we can't respond faster than this to an event we saw coming across the Gulf for days, then why do we think we're prepared to respond to a nuclear or biological attack?" Newt Gingrich

It's a valid question. And one that I think the American people deserve a frank answer to.

Im not certain how to start a thread so Ill post this here because its most applicable.

I just read that Michael Chirtoff stated the following regarding the feds preparedness for this storm (my opinion on this being even if they are doing all they can which somehow may be true -- its obviously not enough, particularly for the nation with the greatest resources on earth):

"That 'perfect storm' of a combination of catastrophes exceeded the foresight of the planners and maybe anybody's foresight," Chertoff said. He called the disaster "breathtaking in its surprise."

This is troubling. Lets set aside the fact that I can personally recall seeing experts on TV two days before landfall talking about a worst case scenario of the hurricane hitting New Orleans and the levees breaking.

How many failures of imagination do our leaders have to have before all confidence in their abilities are eroded. Giving Chertoff the benefit of the doubt, there are now two. The first was a complete and unprepared for surprise -- After the first this latest should have been neither.

On top of this, relating to my comment of not doing enough, I can't help but thinking that even the rescue effort suffers from a failure of imagination. The governments are doing things in the usual ways and they are seemingly not working fast enough to remedy the suffering.

I called for the FEMA director to be fired on my blog last week!

I don't think the matter of Dem or Republican belongs in this discussion. It's a matter of values, class etc.

Y'all disaster vultures keep right on blamestorming and parading your total ignorance and partisan hatreds. Keep yakking about that magic wand we're supposed to have, and how you "feel" it should have been used. Keep sitting on your asses and whining. The rest of us will keep right on doing something useful, as we have trained for and planned for. It takes us a while. We don't have that magic wand of yours, and have to deal with both legal and logistical realities.

In good conditions with more localized disasters, it takes 72-96 hours for massive federal support to arrive--and that requires that the governor of the state take certain legal steps to request it. Governor Blanco has yet to take those steps. Instead, she's full-steam-ahead CYA finger-pointing, actively impeding the response. She has yet to issue the orders and declarations necessary for the feds to assume the chain of command and federalize the LA relief efforts. Without those, the feds have no authority to militarily "invade" the state of Louisiana, usurp local authority, and take charge. None. They can't legally do one damn thing more than Blanco officially asked them to do before the storm, which wasn't much. Mostly, "send money and pick up sticks." (pdf)

The initial NOLA evac order screwup falls on Mayor Nagin and his OEP director, Terry Ebbert. They moved too late, and only partially implemented their own OEP plans. Still, they did finally move. They may have been caught short and unprepared, but they did something. Had they not opened the Superdome and fetched people there in city buses, it would be much worse. Had Nagin not issued that first-ever mandatory evac order (which he apparently did at the urging of the White House) the death toll in NOLA would be exponentially greater.

Even had Nagin issued that order a day or two earlier and used the full resources available to implement it, there would still be people dead or stranded in NOLA right now. Some people refused to leave. (Some people are still refusing to leave!) No magic wand.

The DHS/OEP reports early this morning were that Nagin has "delegated" full authority and command of the NOLA relief efforts to General Honore under NORTHCOM, effectively cutting Blanco out of the loop as far as NOLA is concerned. It may not be entirely legal, but as long as Nagin is backing NORTHCOM it's now their ball game. Thousands of active Airborne and Marine troops (and NG troops from other states NOT under the command of Blanco) are moving into NOLA en masse, and the largest rescue operation in US history is in full swing.

Were there screwups and delays at the federal response level? I'm sure there were. There always are. Were some of them caused by the agency shuffle of creating DHS? No doubt. They might even have cost 12-24 hours delay in some of the effectual federal responses along the line. In the best of times no battle plan, however brilliant, survives initial engagement intact. But the timeline of response tells me that considering the scope and scale of the damage, it's going about as good as can be expected at this point in time outside of NOLA, and in NOLA the full force of the federal government is finally coming to bear, despite Blanco.

Ninety thousand square miles hit. A million or more Americans at least temporarily homeless. Check your local papers for relief efforts you can help.

Please stop making assumptions about people not helping. Thats an awful and juvenile tactic to respond with. I for one already did help the only real way I can (live in NY raising 1 month old daughter) by sending money.

Tully,

Are you unaware of the irony inherent in your chastizing others for playing the blamegame and then immediately proceeding to play it yourself?

With all due respect, I have to wonder how much your reaction here is colored by your own political opinions and beliefs.

But here's some good news.

Tully, I'd like to read more about your personal involvement in the situation when time permits. You do seem to be taking some of the criticism of the federal response personally, which is likely understandable.

There may be a blurring of the distinction between criticism of the high-level management of the response versus the efforts of the troops, so to speak. Everyone should acknowledge that some people are their wit's end trying to do everything they can to help the people who are suffering.

I lack the expertise to characterize the responses by the various levels of government who are charged with reponding to this type of disaster where it occurred. But I'm confident in my impression that this is not purely a failure at the federal level.

A good friend of mine, whom I respect greatly, who is a graduate of the USMA (an institution lucky to have had someone of his talent as a graduate), and who has a good deal of experience and training in the logistics of deploying manpower and other resources, broke it down this way (more or less, this is my translation): the people in the household need to prepared to be on their own for X hours. The local governement needs to be prepared to handle the situation for X number of hours/days. The state then needs to be able take over in the interim between the time the locals are beyond their capabilities and the time it takes the feds to get there.

This does not absolve the feds of any shortcomings in their response. It simply points out what their response is and logically should be. It is the context, it seems to me, in which they should be judged. Maybe they f***ed the whole thing (or some part of it) up. I don't know.

I'm very willing to call out the current administration, which I don't think highly of, for whatever failings it might have had in responding to the needs of the poor, desparate and needy people of New Orleans and the rest of the Gulf Coast. But if I do, I don't want it to be because of my preconceived notions of their competence or focus. And I don't want to blame anyone for failing to do the things that were the responsiblity of others.

Reid Stott has an excellent commentary relevant to this topic. (Well, I thought it was excellent.)

That is an excellent commentary, David. Thanks for posting it! I hope everyone reads it.

Here's another that I found at TPM Cafe: Here

Well, I'm glad you found Stott's piece interesting, although your link seems pretty antithetical to it.

Tully, you're repeating the lie of the ubiquitous "Bush administration senior official" who had complained that, as of Saturday, the governor of Louisiana -- who just happens to be a Democrat -- had not yet declared a state of emergency.

Actually Blanco declared a state of emergency on August 26th.

additionally
here's a good description of the Fed response from the Times Picayune It's worth more than a skim through.

FEMA and the Bush Admin had warnings from the Hurricane Flood Center days before landfall

Thursday the FEMA head admitted he didn't knwo there were problems at the Superdome. Does that moron know about TELEVISION?

Republicans for years have whined about the evils of our government and now that they've been in power long enough to make a difference we now see the fruits of that mindset.

Total clusterfuck

Apparently the military was ready for action. Our pet goat seems to have had other things on his mind.

"Northcom started planning before the storm even hit. We were ready when it hit Florida, because, as you remember, it hit the bottom part of Florida, and then we were planning once it was pointed towards the Gulf Coast.

"So, what we did, we activated what we call 'defense coordinating officers' to work with the states to say, 'OK, what do you think you will need?' And we set up staging bases that could be started. We had the USS Bataan sailing almost behind the hurricane so once the hurricane made landfall, its search and rescue helicopters could be available almost immediately So, we had things ready. The only caveat is: we have to wait until the president authorizes us to do so. The laws of the United States say that the military can't just act in this fashion; we have to wait for the president to give us permission."

Apparently, that permission could have been given right away, but it wasn't. Bush was on vacation, sharing some cake with John McCain, and pretending to play some guitar.

This seems like it could be a fairly big deal. There's been some frustration on the part of military officials about bureaucracy and FEMA's ineffectiveness, but Kelly's remarks to the BCC sounded like a fairly direct challenge to the president's leadership — they wanted to leap into action, but the White House never made the call.

Considering that there are already questions about who was in charge last week, can someone please ask the White House who first gave the order to NorthCom and when?"

from thecarpetbaggerreport

What I've heard about the military response is that the Coast Guard didn't wait for anyone, they just dove in and went to work. Kudos to them.

BTW does anyone know about a supposed Potemkin relief effort for the Bush photo op?
Sen Landrieu referred to it in a press release on 9/3
"...But perhaps the greatest disappointment stands at the breached 17th Street levee. Touring this critical site yesterday with the President, I saw what I believed to be a real and significant effort to get a handle on a major cause of this catastrophe. Flying over this critical spot again this morning, less than 24 hours later, it became apparent that yesterday we witnessed a hastily prepared stage set for a Presidential photo opportunity; and the desperately needed resources we saw were this morning reduced to a single, lonely piece of equipment. "

goes well with this
Parish President Aaron Broussard breaks down on Meet The Press
"The guy who runs this building I’m in, Emergency Management, he’s responsible for everything. His mother was trapped in St. Bernard nursing home and every day she called him and said, “Are you coming, son? Is somebody coming?” and he said, “Yeah, Mama, somebody’s coming to get you.” Somebody’s coming to get you on Tuesday. Somebody’s coming to get you on Wednesday. Somebody’s coming to get you on Thursday. Somebody’s coming to get you on Friday… and she drowned Friday night. She drowned Friday night! [Sobbing] Nobody’s coming to get us. Nobody’s coming to get us. The Secretary has promised. Everybody’s promised. They’ve had press conferences. I’m sick of the press conferences. For god’s sakes, just shut up and send us somebody."

also from Broussard on MSNBC
Let me give you just three quick examples. We had Wal-Mart deliver three trucks of water, trailer trucks of water. FEMA turned them back. They said we didn't need them. This was a week ago. FEMA--we had 1,000 gallons of diesel fuel on a Coast Guard vessel docked in my parish. The Coast Guard said, "Come get the fuel right away." When we got there with our trucks, they got a word. "FEMA says don't give you the fuel." Yesterday--yesterday--FEMA comes in and cuts all of our emergency communication lines. They cut them without notice. Our sheriff, Harry Lee, goes back in, he reconnects the line. He posts armed guards on our line and says, "No one is getting near these lines." Sheriff Harry Lee said that if America--American government would have responded like Wal-Mart has responded, we wouldn't be in this crisis."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9179790/

I've been reading many posts on this blog about "the blamegame." That it is innappropriate to point fingers concerning the Federal and Local Government's handling of the situation and that doing so is exploiting the situation for political gain.

An exchange between a reporter and a congress person made me realize why this is not so. The congress person was going on and on about what a fantastic job our government was doing in response to the disaster, patting herself on the back and all of her associates. Finally the reporter broke into her self-congratulatory tirade:

"Excuse me," he said, "but this morning I saw the corpse of a woman being eaten by rats. There were no national guard, coast guard, or other relief officials in sight. Where do you get off telling us what a great job your doing?"

In response, she went right back to the self-congratulatory cycle until he grew so disgusted that he cut off the interview.

I think when things go wrong we have a moral obligation, in a Democratic society, to light a bonfire under the asses of our elected leaders to get them moving. This congress person was doing nothing but exploiting the tragedy to make a stump speech. Threatening our leaders with the prospect of not getting reelected if they don't start losing some sleep to set things right is perfectly fine in my book.

It our responsibility as stewards of our government to scream in outrage when things go wrong. I don't trust anyone who wants to silence that.

Marcus,

You miss a HUGE issue in your several posts. Yes, the active duty military cannot go in without the President giving permission. But under Section 403 of the Stafford Act, the President CANNOT give that permission unless and until the GOVERNOR of the state requests it. Also, other states' National Guards cannot go in until the Governor signs a letter required by an interstate compact governing such cooperation. The governor HAS NOT DONE SO. Yes, she declared the state of emergency on the 26th, but read that actual declaration and the letter that she sent to the President, which Tully linked to. It does NOT make the formal requests needed for the feds to do a whole lot of things. The feds have been drafting letters for her to sign for a week now, and she either refuses or delays signing them. The political community down here knows who is responsible for the initial delays... and it ain't the President.

I can't quite get my arms around these arguments that the States need to ask for help. If terrorists were to attack a specific city (say the current situation was the result of a terrorist attack), you mean to say that even after all the supposed post 9-11 reforms (including creating this department of Homeland security) the feds are powerless until the governor of the state actually requests their help.

If this is the administration's excuse for not helping its pretty lame on two fronts (1) shouldn't this formal request that obviously causes emergency delay have been remedied in our post 9-11 comprehensive response strategy and (2) real leadership would not wait to clear the loopholes in a time of emergency, but do what needs to be done and deal with the remifactions afterword (this is like a person waiting to make sure they could legally give CPR before they jumped in and performed it).

You haven't dealt with state government very much, then, lonelymoderate. They are very jealous of their powers and sovereignty. They do not want the federal government coming in at the drop of the hat. It's their state, their responsibility for law enforcement, etc. They tend to believe they know better what their state needs, and often times they are right. Some of the officials with local parishes outside of New Orleans have been on their own for a week, only just getting any visitors from the state or FEMA until yesterday or so. But those parishes have resourceful, dedicated sheriffs and other leaders who have made out phenomenally well with just their own resources, because they used their head. Frankly, they can do much better on their own and only need FEMA or the Red Cross or somebody to bring in basic supplies and food and water. Feds charging in crying "we know best" would make matter worse, not better.

There is no reason any of this should be a problem. Most state governors, like Haley Barbour in Mississippi, made the necessary requests immediately. We're not talking complicated forms, or the governor guessing what to ask for. Here, the feds told the governor exactly what they needed her to say or sign, and she just wouldn't do it. And for better or for worse, that's a fundamental part of our national political structure. The feds have their powers, but the states have their own powers as well. In the end, here, basically what I believe has happened is that the mayor of New Orleans begged the President to take over regardless of the governor, and he eventually did. But that's not a decision which can be made promptly. There is no good reason for the governor to delay making the requests.

You haven't dealt with state government very much, then, lonelymoderate. They are very jealous of their powers and sovereignty. They do not want the federal government coming in at the drop of the hat. It's their state, their responsibility for law enforcement, etc. They tend to believe they know better what their state needs, and often times they are right. Some of the officials with local parishes outside of New Orleans have been on their own for a week, only just getting any visitors from the state or FEMA until yesterday or so. But those parishes have resourceful, dedicated sheriffs and other leaders who have made out phenomenally well with just their own resources, because they used their head. Frankly, they can do much better on their own and only need FEMA or the Red Cross or somebody to bring in basic supplies and food and water. Feds charging in crying "we know best" would make matter worse, not better.

There is no reason any of this should be a problem. Most state governors, like Haley Barbour in Mississippi, made the necessary requests immediately. We're not talking complicated forms, or the governor guessing what to ask for. Here, the feds told the governor exactly what they needed her to say or sign, and she just wouldn't do it. And for better or for worse, that's a fundamental part of our national political structure. The feds have their powers, but the states have their own powers as well. In the end, here, basically what I believe has happened is that the mayor of New Orleans begged the President to take over regardless of the governor, and he eventually did. But that's not a decision which can be made promptly. There is no good reason for the governor to delay making the requests.

Thanks for being patronizing.... I understand the realities of federalism.

That does not even come close to answering the questions raised. Why after 9-11 does the federal government still need to ask for this permission? Would it be different for a terrorist strike? IAnd even if they do, why would an on top of things administration let people die waiting to jump through the hoops of such beauacracy.

I believe your saying... Thats how state and federal government works (again I understand federalism.... but the system allows the feds to supercede the states in many arenas..... which certainly expanded more after 9-11)...other people filled out their forms right.... the governor of New Orleans did not sign her forms which the Bush administration gladly filled out for her (presumably last Monday night).

We didn't change the constitution after 9/11, so no, federalism hasn't changed since then. A few specific statutes have changed, but the politicians at all levels declined to change the statutes that govern this.

The problem here is that Louisiana elected this governor, who cannot make a decision to save our lives. That is costly and deeply regretable.

But I can also imagine many other scenarios where I would NOT want the federal government to send in active duty armed forces into my state or any other state without the consent of the state officials. You can't outlaw idiocy, unfortunately. What do you want the statute to say? "The president may not send in active duty military to assist with disaster relief efforts unless first requested by the governor of the state; except if the president decides the governor is being stupid, in which case he may remove the governor from power and put the state under federal control against the will of its elected officials." ? Is that the law you propose?

And at any rate, you are talking about the law as it might be. The law as it is today positively prohibits the president from taking many of the actions which needed to be taken without proper requests from the state governor. Imagine that the president had broken that law to do what he thought was right, and sent in the troops against the governor's wishes (since she refused to request them, one must presume it would be against her wishes). And then something went wrong (something is always going to go wrong. Maybe the military accidentally shoots an innocent civilian. Or the governor gets really territorial and orders her state police and the national guard units under her command to prevent the military from accessing key sites. THAT would truly be a disaster. And it is not remote hypotheticals. When people are playing with real soldiers with real guns, things can get real screwy real quick. And the president would be in breach of the law he is sworn to uphold, so he would be on the losing end of that political and legal battle. The president CANNOT break the law over something like this. It would be disatrous for everybody.

And once again, we're not talking about bureaucratic hoops. The federal government did in fact "fill out the forms" that they needed the governor to sign. They aren't forms, just letters making specific requests for specific types of assistance. They told her what to ask for. She wouldn't make up her mind. When the President and Gov. Blanco met on Thursday, he gave her two options to select, and her response was, well, give me 24 hours to make a decision. That's NOT bureaucratic red tape standing in the way of things.

And if you'll forgive me coming across as patronizing again, there is no "Governor of New Orleans". There is a governor of Louisiana. New Orleans has a mayor. The governor ranks higher than the mayor, but he does not work for her, and she has no legal control over city government or city assets.

And the "forms" were not filled out on Monday night because nobody knew how bad it would be and what kind of help would be needed in New Orleans until Tuesday. The Coast Guard did in fact immediately come in and start airlifting people off of roofs on Monday evening as soon as the hurricane had passed. It wasn't until the levee broke on Tuesday morning that we knew that New Orleans proper would flood, though the suburbs had already flooded. And nobody predicted how quickly law and order would break down. People were not starving or dying of thirst on Tuesday or Wednesday, but the looting and the shootings started that early.

Y'all disaster vultures keep right on blamestorming and parading your total ignorance and partisan hatreds. Keep yakking about that magic wand we're supposed to have, and how you "feel" it should have been used. Keep sitting on your asses and whining. The rest of us will keep right on doing something useful, as we have trained for and planned for. It takes us a while. We don't have that magic wand of yours, and have to deal with both legal and logistical realities.

Uhhh..okay. So don't believe our lying eyes, eh?

In good conditions with more localized disasters, it takes 72-96 hours for massive federal support to arrive--and that requires that the governor of the state take certain legal steps to request it. Governor Blanco has yet to take those steps. Instead, she's full-steam-ahead CYA finger-pointing, actively impeding the response. She has yet to issue the orders and declarations necessary for the feds to assume the chain of command and federalize the LA relief efforts. Without those, the feds have no authority to militarily "invade" the state of Louisiana, usurp local authority, and take charge. None. They can't legally do one damn thing more than Blanco officially asked them to do before the storm, which wasn't much. Mostly, "send money and pick up sticks."

I don't think they were looking for "massive federal support" before the 72 hour mark. I think they'd probably have settled for them showing up and allowing those that wanted to help to do so. For example, FEMA's rejection of self-sufficient emergency workers and equipment from Chicago is just plain stupid.

Blanco did in fact take the necessary steps to get federal assistance. She declared a state of emergency (as another has already pointed out) on August 26...which should have prompted immediate (and massive) federal assistance. Further, Blanco's refusal to sign over National Guard jurisdiction to Bush hasn't kept Guard and regular military out of Louisiana currently..(they're in there now and could have been in there days ago).

The initial NOLA evac order screwup falls on Mayor Nagin and his OEP director, Terry Ebbert. They moved too late, and only partially implemented their own OEP plans. Still, they did finally move. They may have been caught short and unprepared, but they did something. Had they not opened the Superdome and fetched people there in city buses, it would be much worse. Had Nagin not issued that first-ever mandatory evac order (which he apparently did at the urging of the White House) the death toll in NOLA would be exponentially greater.

Nagin should have moved sooner, no doubt about it. But the feds should have been there when Blanco declared the state of emergency. FEMA was completely unprepared..and Bush (Cheney and Rice) all being on vacation when this was going down just looks really bad. Bush looked like he was grudgingly giving up his golf game and Iraq speechifying to deal with this.

Even had Nagin issued that order a day or two earlier and used the full resources available to implement it, there would still be people dead or stranded in NOLA right now. Some people refused to leave. (Some people are still refusing to leave!) No magic wand.

Yes, some people are refusing to leave. This absolves the feds from turning away help and not getting in to provide food, water and medicine for those in need how, exactly?

The DHS/OEP reports early this morning were that Nagin has "delegated" full authority and command of the NOLA relief efforts to General Honore under NORTHCOM, effectively cutting Blanco out of the loop as far as NOLA is concerned. It may not be entirely legal, but as long as Nagin is backing NORTHCOM it's now their ball game. Thousands of active Airborne and Marine troops (and NG troops from other states NOT under the command of Blanco) are moving into NOLA en masse, and the largest rescue operation in US history is in full swing.

Given that many of the NG troops are still under the command of their own governors...I would find it difficult to believe that most wouldn't demurre to Blanco. Oregon is sending 1500 Guard, I believe. Our governor would most certainly do what Blanco requested.

Were there screwups and delays at the federal response level? I'm sure there were. There always are. Were some of them caused by the agency shuffle of creating DHS? No doubt. They might even have cost 12-24 hours delay in some of the effectual federal responses along the line. In the best of times no battle plan, however brilliant, survives initial engagement intact. But the timeline of response tells me that considering the scope and scale of the damage, it's going about as good as can be expected at this point in time outside of NOLA, and in NOLA the full force of the federal government is finally coming to bear, despite Blanco.

They're coming to bear despite Brown and Bush. It's been reported (I can't get the link to work...I'll try to get it again later if you want) that FEMA kept the Red Cross out of NOLA proper. Blanco didn't keep the Red Cross out. Blanco wasn't rejecting assistance and aid from other states. Blanco didn't keep the national guard from coming in to assist. All of that rests with FEMA and the federal government.

OH..and apparently Northcom's commander didn't get the "blame Blanco" memo:

"Northcom started planning before the storm even hit. We were ready when it hit Florida, because, as you remember, it hit the bottom part of Florida, and then we were planning once it was pointed towards the Gulf Coast.

"So, what we did, we activated what we call 'defense coordinating officers' to work with the states to say, 'OK, what do you think you will need?' And we set up staging bases that could be started.

"We had the USS Bataan sailing almost behind the hurricane so once the hurricane made landfall, its search and rescue helicopters could be available almost immediately So, we had things ready.

"The only caveat is: we have to wait until the president authorizes us to do so. The laws of the United States say that the military can't just act in this fashion; we have to wait for the president to give us permission."

Carla, it seems several people above you have stated that the LA Governor's declaration of a state of emergency in fact does NOT trigger many forms of assistance which would have been helpful. It's not clear to me why you're ignoring this. Perhaps you didn't read the entire thread, or perhaps you just don't feel that knowing what you're talking about is a necessary pre-condition for criticism.

Seems to me that, for a variety of reasons, initial responses were inadequate. I expect that the many reasons why this was so will be the focus of extensive inquiry. I hope that when this inquiry occurs, I'll be able to educate myself about timelines and protection mechanisms as they function between local, state, and federal agencies, In the meantime, I'm not going to pass judgement on either President Bush or La's governor.

As to what this disaster says about national preparedness, I'm as reluctant there as elsewhere. A category 4 or 5 hurricane hitting NOLA is a once every several centuries event, and NOLA is especially suited to be just about the worst place that a hurricane could hit. So I'm not quite ready to say that this shows what a bunch of morons the feds or states or cities are.

Especially as it relates to general disaster response as a national security issue, I do agree with the notion that we need to deeply question our practices and get better. One of the things that I think needs special attention is how do we spend our finite resources most wisely, as opposed to financing ass-covering and power-grabbing festivals. Here in Boston I've witnessed a variety of downtown buildings changing their exterior configurations, mostly to add things that would stop a truck bomb from toppling the building via a frontal attack. I find such expenditures, though private, to be somewhere between questionable and laughable. I view such window-dressing @-covering efforts as proof of a lack of serious realistic response across the board.

Blanco's declaration allowed the feds to send money and help pick up sticks. The link's above. Try reading it. For the most part that's all FEMA has ever been good for anyway, and that's about all local planners have ever expected from them. Biggest help always comes from the assorted states and their NG's supporting the locals on the scene and the state.

Gotta love these instant armchair experts, who prior to August 29 knew absolutely nothing about the subject, but a week later know more than those who have been at it for years. I've been actively involved in disaster relief and emergency preparedness at one level or another since 1988, but if I point out the facts on the ground I'm a right-winger apologist, while partisan pontification from ignorance is responsible citizenship.

Pat's on the ground and somewhat in the loop in Baton Rouge, and has a better grasp on the political situation there than any of us. Read what he said.

The command structures in Louisiana on paper are still not unified. In reality NORTHCOM and Honore are now in charge, with the state adjutant general rubber-stamping for them and Nagin backing them as the local civil authority. My info is that they are staying in technical compliance with Posse Comitatus and the Insurrection Act through the expedient of "embedding" one LAANG trooper in each unit, who is the technical "civil authority" purportedly controlling and commanding them for statutory purposes. Yeah. Right. But they are not there because of Blanco, but despite her. They've done an end-run to deploy, with the assistance of other state officials to keep it all (technically) legal.

Read what Nagin had to say yesterday about Bush and Blanco--it's an eye-opener.

He [Bush] came down and saw it, and he put a general on the field. His name is General Honore. And when he hit the field, we started to see action.

And what the state was doing, I don't frigging know. But I tell you, I am pissed. It wasn't adequate....

....He [Bush] called me in that office after that. And he said, "Mr. Mayor, I offered two options to the governor." I said -- and I don't remember exactly what. There were two options. I was ready to move today. The governor said she needed 24 hours to make a decision.

S. O'BRIEN: You're telling me the president told you the governor said she needed 24 hours to make a decision?

NAGIN: Yes.

This matches with what I saw from OEM comm during the week. In Mississippi and Alabama, units from everywhere moving in at the opening bell Monday to get the "beach heads" going for the followup mass aid to follow. In Louisiana, units from everywhere poised to move in, waiting for the required legal approvals from Blanco's office. Apparently the LAANG at NOLA sat around waiting for commands from Baton Rouge that never came.

We're going to find screwups all up and down the line, from Nagin's failures with the evac plans to Mike Brown's inability to perform personal hygeine tasks without staff assistance. (Fortunately his staff seems as capable as FEMA has ever been--which doesn't say much, as FEMA is geared to picking up sticks and passing out checks.) No emergency plan survives contact with reality intact. The relevant questions will be, where were the material delays and bottlenecks, what caused them, and how can they be prevented in the future? What factors caused the breakdown of local and state control in NOLA, and how can they be prevented?

There will be delays to be found in all the state units, and federal units. They're not robots, and they don't have the Defense budget handy to pay for drills involving a cast of millions. In the middle of chaos, perfection or any approximation thereof is the rare exception. The bigger question will be, what delays were widespread and systemic? Because those are the ones where leadership and/or the bureaucracy and/or the planning concepts failed.

The earliest NOLA could reasonably have expected massive federal presence and supply lifts was Thursday mid-day, and that's without the levees breaking on Tuesday factored in. While I can't guage the veracity of on-site reports from this range, the first reported sighting of active-duty military recon on the ground that I heard of was Thursday mid-day, and the first active-duty military mechanized presence mid-day Friday. That would be at 72 and 96 hours after the opening bell of Monday mid-day. And Navy and CG coastal rescue flights started before the rains quit on Monday.

90 thousand square miles of disaster. 180 square miles of anarchy. But hey, don't despair. There will be plenty of blame to pass around. Some of it will even be deserved.

Tully's comments have been right on...

Emergency Management is a local and state government priority everywhere else in this country except apparently in New Orleans or anywhere else that the Daily Kos crows can get in their licks on Bush. If the Federal government, by it's own will, started entering cities without the permission of the state and local authorities, the ACLU would sue and claim that their civil liberties had been violated. Their is a process for these things and it starts with local planning... Louisiana and the City of New Orleans had none.

I am not defending Bush. I think he has been lackluster at best until a few days ago, but to hear assholes like Mitt Romney voice an opinion on an issue that they clearly know nothing about, in a state that is not their own, when it is evident that they are trying to run for President, is frustrating as hell when thousands upon thousands of Federal employees, people that I personally know and care about, are currently risking their lives in the South. Let's not forget that heroic work is being done by many who are volunteering to serve details in the Gulf region, while Mitt Romney is sitting on his blue blood ass lying to the people who elected him Governor of an entire state. Last time I checked, patience was a virtue.

I thought this blog was supposed to be about moderate political discussion.

What a disappointment. When you read the above you only see partisan blame or defenses masked inside accusations of partisanship regarding any disagreeing comments. I had hoped the contributors- if true moderates- would be more open minded.

Carla, it seems several people above you have stated that the LA Governor's declaration of a state of emergency in fact does NOT trigger many forms of assistance which would have been helpful. It's not clear to me why you're ignoring this. Perhaps you didn't read the entire thread, or perhaps you just don't feel that knowing what you're talking about is a necessary pre-condition for criticism.

Along with Blanco's declaration of emergency, she requested very specific aid from the federal government.

This is quite a bit more than asking for "money and pick up sticks". Further, the Bush Administration apparently attempted to get Blanco to sign her state over to the feds, but state officials were concerned that the feds would declare martial law..and use it as political fodder to go after the local government. Declaring states of emergency releases certain federal and state dollars to assist, incidentally.

Blanco's declaration allowed the feds to send money and help pick up sticks. The link's above. Try reading it. For the most part that's all FEMA has ever been good for anyway, and that's about all local planners have ever expected from them. Biggest help always comes from the assorted states and their NG's supporting the locals on the scene and the state.

Well golly...had FEMA NOT BEEN BLOCKING ASSORTED STATES, CORPORATIONS AND THE RED CROSS from getting to New Orleans, who knows how this would have gone down?

Carla,

Can you answer specifically what of the things that were requested in that letter were addressed by the Feds, if her request was part of any specific pre-existing emergency management plan, and if what she proposed would actually have made a difference? Something tells me that a memo a few days before what at the time could have been the biggest hurricane to ever reach land in the history of the United States isn't exactly adequate, but that is just me. I don't know, but maybe it is more complex than the President getting on the red phone in his office and shining a spot light into the night sky?

Furthermore, this whole FEMA is blocking help rhetoric seems to be a bit disingenuous to me. Why are they blocking it? Is there a legitimate reason for their actions? Can they even answer that question now, while they are trying to save lives? The Red Cross specifically asks people not to send clothes or food, but only cash. Why aren't you bad mouthing them? Is it because they aren't apart of the administration?

Seriously, we get it:

1. Bush is bad, corrupt, and evil.
2. He doesn't like black and/or poor people.
3. This is all his fault.
4. Those who voted for him are stupid sheep.

I agree problems exist, but now isn't the time to take headlines in the newspaper and make major public policy assumptions. I think Louisiana's planning sucked, and Bush has been lackluster in the aftermath... Why is it that one side should be burdened with the entire blame, when it is clear that everybody could have done things differently?

Carla, do any of the things in this memo refute the contentions of others that Blanco failed to make the particular requests that they described? I don't see it.

The memo you've provided, dated, 8/28, looks to me like a boilerplate pre-hurricane request, as opposed to a request for the specific services which no one was sure NOLA needed until AFTER the hurricanes passed and the levees broke.

The contentions of others here are that Blanco failed to make certain specific requests on Monday and Tuesday in order to get the ball rolling, the same types of requests that Mississippi and Alabama seemed to know how to do.Specifically, this seems to relate to the presence of troops.

Most of us have noticed the immediate improvement when federal troops under the leadership of that General (whose name escapes me) began restoring order. These are the guys that, as you have admitted, Blanco was afraid to turn things over to, for what you admit were political reasons. You are actually admitting that Blanco and other state officals were afraid of the politcal fallout of letting the feds come in and possibly declare martial law. Doesn't this seem in retrospect to have been a crappy reason for delay?

The letter Carla would probably have liked to link to is here, in which Blanco does make some specific requests for specific things from the federal government, including "40,000 troops," type unspecified. Note the date on that letter. Friday, September 2nd.

The problem being, those troops aren't supposed to be sent without other requirements being met. If NG units, they have to be dispatched by other governors, not the President or the federal government. If federal, they must be dispatched by the President. And active-duty federal troops cannot be used for domestic law enforcement purposes without federalization and unification of the chain of command--which is what Blanco has refused to do. Posse Comitatus. Nor can they be dispatched to a state without the specific request and approval of the governor--or a declaration of a state of rebellion, which is akin to a declaration of war. Insurrection Act.

The federal government does not "lend" the 82nd Airborne out to the states to use as they see fit under the command of the governor. Nor do they send in combat troops into an American state without stringent conditions being met. Nor should they, as to do so is to militarily invade that state.

The other two states most affected, Mississippi and Alabama, did not feel the need to call in active-duty troops. They activated the interstate compact for outside NG units before the storm hit, so that outside units from other states could go right to work.

The paper trail is available if you dig, and I've a pretty fair operational picture of the events that led up to the FUBAR of N'awlins. The bones are in my posts above. What happened system-wide across the entire area and in the federal bureaucracy will take months to uncover and assess in any sober fashion. It will be as crucially important for future planning to note what was done right, as compared to what wasn't.

Nope, the feds weren't there in overwhelming numbers thirty seconds after the bell rang. We never are, because it's physically impossible. As I have suggested, those with experience in disaster relief and emergency planning have had few surprises this last week. A lot of frsutration, but few surprises. Every major disaster is a new trip into chaos, with the realities on the ground screwing up all your careful plans.

No magic wand.

Something tells me that a memo a few days before what at the time could have been the biggest hurricane to ever reach land in the history of the United States isn't exactly adequate, but that is just me. I don't know, but maybe it is more complex than the President getting on the red phone in his office and shining a spot light into the night sky?

The President was still on vacation at the point, remember? He was talking about Iraq and hitting the links. Given the scale of this storm and the magnitude of it's projected destruction..why exactly wouldn't the POTUS be on the red phone...making sure the federal emergency people were ready to go? Or is it just too much to ask for him to pay attention?

Furthermore, this whole FEMA is blocking help rhetoric seems to be a bit disingenuous to me. Why are they blocking it? Is there a legitimate reason for their actions? Can they even answer that question now, while they are trying to save lives? The Red Cross specifically asks people not to send clothes or food, but only cash. Why aren't you bad mouthing them? Is it because they aren't apart of the administration?

You said earlier in comments to this thread that emergency management is a local and state issue. Well..is it or not? If as locals we have to rely on private citizens and corporations and local politicians to help provide assistance..then why was FEMA blocking that aid? The Red Cross clearly wanted to get in to the area. They were kept out. Why exactly am I supposed to be criticizing them?

I agree problems exist, but now isn't the time to take headlines in the newspaper and make major public policy assumptions. I think Louisiana's planning sucked, and Bush has been lackluster in the aftermath... Why is it that one side should be burdened with the entire blame, when it is clear that everybody could have done things differently?

I've noted repeatedly both here and PK that there was a government failure from the local to the federal level. However I'm noticing a distinct lack of outrage about the feds' ball dropping while watching the blame shift to Blanco. Certainly she and the mayor could have had disaster stores and better transportation for folks to get out. But when it became evident that people were stranded and without resources (in one of the poorest states in the union)..the fact that the feds stood by and essentially did nothing for days is, in my view, the greatest breakdown of all.

Carla, do any of the things in this memo refute the contentions of others that Blanco failed to make the particular requests that they described? I don't see it.

The chief complait appears to be that Blanco wouldn't sign over jurisdiction and thus prevented troops from going into New Orleans. (Which is a screwy interpretation of Posse Comitatus...which doesn't keep the military from enforcing the law, but is designed to allow it to happen only at the behest of the POTUS and Congress). It also seems like a shaky argument when you look at this:

More active-duty troops are joining the Hurricane Katrina relief effort than originally planned, and a senior commander said Monday they likely will be needed for months, not weeks. Although the Pentagon said Saturday that 2,500 soldiers from the Army's 82nd Airborne Division were being dispatched to the New Orleans area, a spokeswoman for the division said Monday that 4,700 would be there by Tuesday. Also going are combat and support forces from the 1st Cavalry Division and 13th Corps Support Command at Fort Hood, Texas, plus about 2,000 Marines. The Pentagon originally said the 1st Cavalry was sending 2,700 soldiers, but division spokesman Capt. George Lewis said Monday that 1,700 were going, plus 100 support troops.

Thus the total for active-duty ground forces would be about 8,500, up from the 7,200 announced on Saturday. Twenty-one Navy ships also are participating, including the aircraft carrier USS Harry S. Truman off the coast of Mississippi. The Air Force said Monday that its aircraft have flown more than 1,000 missions, including helicopter crews that have rescued more than 3,600 people and evacuation flights that have moved 2,600 medical patients.

Blanco still hasn't signed over federal jurisdiction, btw.

Somehow they managed to get the military in there anyway. Weird, eh?

The problem being, those troops aren't supposed to be sent without other requirements being met. If NG units, they have to be dispatched by other governors, not the President or the federal government. If federal, they must be dispatched by the President. And active-duty federal troops cannot be used for domestic law enforcement purposes without federalization and unification of the chain of command--which is what Blanco has refused to do. Posse Comitatus. Nor can they be dispatched to a state without the specific request and approval of the governor--or a declaration of a state of rebellion, which is akin to a declaration of war. Insurrection Act.

Yet they have. Federal troops are there..better late than never. And all without Blanco signing over the jurisdiction.

Carla,

Tully explained above how they were able to get around Blanco with Nagin's cooperation.

I don't mean to be rude and in fact your recent piece on abortion was very thought provoking and well-written, but I'm getting to the point where I sort of tune you out because you seem to hold onto your positions very rigidly and very rarely moderate them in response to serious objections.

Also, I can usually predict your position in advance with little effort.

I know you're smarter than this, and I know the existence of partisans in not rare, but I don't really get them. I know you're a Deist for instance, a position I respect. But I get the same feeling listening to you as I would listening to a fundamentalist Christian. Don't they really frustrate you? Now, maybe you're right in this instance, but your previous partisan behavior makes me leery of trusting your opinion.

I am open to an argument that say, Bush is a horrible president and should be impeached. Maybe, what do I know? I'm skeptical, but I'll listen. But when see such beliefs are held so strongly, disregarding alternative views and evidence, it just sort of creeps me out.

Damn't Carla, you can be a liberal, hell maybe I'm a liberal, but do you have to be so reflexively partisan? It's good for your mind and soul, and people would be more open to your views if you were less bellicose. I think one could be a consistent advocate for far-left liberalism and get respect if it were done in an honest and non-vituperative manner.

Again, as a Deist, don't the fundies really perplex you? Well I'm just as perplexed by the partisans. Sorry for being rude, but it's meant in a constructive spirit.

Carla,

Maybe vituperative and bellicose were not the most accurate, militantly certain is probably better.

Wow..this is sort of like getting "Sunrise Semester" for free...;-)

Well, it looks like Brown is on his way out anyway, which is a blessing.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but the fact that the levees were federally controlled makes it a federal problem alone. The state isn't in charge of the levees, the federal government is. The levee broke, it is the feds' problem.

Perhaps the cons are right in this instance; in order to fix this problem, we need to return the control of the levees to Lousiana.

But here's another nice hero story.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but the fact that the levees were federally controlled makes it a federal problem alone.

OK, Jean, you're wrong. :-)

The levees in question are owned and controlled by the Orleans Levee District, which is in turn controlled by the eight-member Orleans Levee Board of Commissioners. Six of the Board are appointed by the Governor, one is either the Mayor or his representative, and one is appointed by the Mayor from the City Council. The District also owns and operates the N.O. Lakefront Airport, South Shore Marina, Orleans Marina, Lake Vista Community Center, and Floodcomm. They soak up 11.9 mils of the Orleans Parish property tax as a dedicated subsidy, in addition to the income from the other properties.

Like so much in Louisiana, the Board is a thoroughly corrupt autocracy that doesn't believe in letting little details like the Army Corps of Engineers get between them and the graft. Instead, they partner with the ACE on flood control projects which (surprise!) brings in more loot to share around.

It gets even worse. Individual levees are often owned by individual levee boards, who build in a graft layer of their own when "leasing" them to larger levee boards...but it would take a book. Let's just say the sole bright spot of the ACE involvement is that it brings some regional planning to the table, and provides some non-corrupt inspection of levee projects to helps insure that real concrete and steel and such is occasionally used, instead of the customary Quikrete-shell-over-dirt-filler-who'll-know-the-difference? brother-in-law contractor materials.

I wish I had time for an in-depth on the political graft structure of NOLA, or just LA in general. It's fascinating stuff. The mark of success for a NOLA mayor is to complete an entire term without yourself or any family members or business partners being indicted. That doesn't make you honest, just skillful.

Tully, this is off topic, but exactly when is your head going to explode? Take a rest. Say something stupid.

Tully explained above how they were able to get around Blanco with Nagin's cooperation.

They didn't need Nagin's cooperation. That's the point. The argument is that legally they needed Blanco's in order to get the military in. But clearly they didn't..because they're there without her signing off on the federal jurisdiction.

Damn't Carla, you can be a liberal, hell maybe I'm a liberal, but do you have to be so reflexively partisan? It's good for your mind and soul, and people would be more open to your views if you were less bellicose. I think one could be a consistent advocate for far-left liberalism and get respect if it were done in an honest and non-vituperative manner.

Again, as a Deist, don't the fundies really perplex you? Well I'm just as perplexed by the partisans. Sorry for being rude, but it's meant in a constructive spirit.

First of all..thanks for the compliments.

Second,I'm perplexed by those that don't take an objective look at factual information and draw logical conclusions, Adam. For example...the idea that somehow troops just couldn't go into Louisiana without Blanco's signing off to the feds..yet somehow eventually they managed to get in without Blanco signing off to the feds. That doesn't strike you as just a little weak?

I am open to an argument that say, Bush is a horrible president and should be impeached. Maybe, what do I know? I'm skeptical, but I'll listen. But when see such beliefs are held so strongly, disregarding alternative views and evidence, it just sort of creeps me out.

I'm looking at both the alternative views and evidence..and it doesn't add up to me. Like why we're being told that NOLA didn't follow the evacuation plan...when 80% of New Orleans residents were in fact evacuated. And why buses weren't out there getting more people...when there weren't drivers to take them. Or why FEMA was turning away assistance from what are apparently quite a few very well qualified people and not allowing the Red Cross to go in to New Orleans.

Now I have said here on this very blog that I believe the state and local authorities weren't stellar in this effort. But they're most certainly not the ones that stood by blocking assistance and not shuttling food, water and medicine to those still in New Orleans for DAYS.

If that makes me overly partisan..fine...I'm overly partisan. But I flat refuse to believe that for almost a week..the feds didn't manage to do something for those people and this makes it the fault of state and local officials. Especially for one of the most resource challenged states in the union.

Tully,

Thanks for that cogent answer! :-)

I'm just a bit confused here; if the NO levees are under state control, why is Washington paying for them?

In Carla's defense, it should be noted that Brown waited for hours to issue orders, which was quite different from his response in Florida last year, when he had supplies ready and waiting before the hurricanes hit landfall.

It will be interesting to see what conclusions are drawn about the response to the hurricane. They will all be drawn with 20/20 hindsight of course, and there will undoubtably be two versions along partisan lines. Someone is likely to get fired (which won't change anything, but to quote the red queen "off with their heads!"). The call for firings before any studies is counterproductive IMO.

Comparisons between 9/11 and Katrina are not possible. 10 blocks vs. 10,000 sq miles.

Political and legal finger pointing without a discussion of the actual logistics of responding to a disaster of this magnitude is not realistic.

The locals were overwhelmed. There wasn't even a small chance they wouldn't be. The states alone couldn't have handled a disaster half this size. LA's response to NO seemed a little slow, but we really don't know all the facts. We can start anylsis right away, but let's wait a bit before pointing any fingers.

A disaster of this magnitude can really only be handled by the federal government. I know that this isn't a popular position, but the response time didn't seem all that slow to me. It could be that FEMA saw the levy didn't break, and pulled the tripwire in the direction harder hit. This would create some strong logistic problems in rerouting resources once the levy did break. The instances I heard about individual help efforts being turned away, most likely has to do with not wanting the rescue to turn into a clusterf*k of uncoordinated efforts. Feds=red tape. A lot of it is there for a reason, even though it slows things down. I think what we want to do is pare away the excessive red tape. The ultimate yardstick should be how many lives could have been saved had the entire relief/rescue effort ran at 100% efficiency? What is the maximum efficiency we can reasonably expect?

But anyway - Off with their heads!

Dennis

Just in case people don't have it here is is Gov. Blonco's AUGUST 28TH letter to the president
which does go into considerable detail about the dire nature of the need for federal assistance.

here

As fas as why Washington pays for levees, some it has to do with the jurisdiction of the Army Corps of Engineers in and around "Navigable Waters" which are bordered by some of the levees. Same reason why they are also in the Sacramento Delta.

I don't think anyone mentioned the fact that the
Bush administration, unwilling to take the political hit by drafting soldiers into the Army to fight overseas, sent overseas state NG units whose real job is protecting the home front and providing disaster relief. In this case it's the 256th Brigade Combat Team as listed in her letter to Bush, requesting that they return to their home state. So we see that state response to disasters is significantly inhibited by national policy.

BTW, I invite anyone to do a comparison between the FEMA response and the presidential response to the Midwestern floods of 1993, the Northridge earthquake of 1994, and 1995's Oklahoma City terrorist attack - considered models of emergency response - and the current clusterfuck. During the Clinton administration FEMA and state officials were constantly meeting and in close coordination. People knew there roles and who to contact. They knew the resources and where to get them from and where to deliver them. A far cry from Tully's rather dismissive and untrue characterization of Clinton's FEMA.. What we have now are the two clueless wonders Chertoff and Brown who admitted to several reporters that they had no idea that people were starving at the New Orleans Convention Center

And in response to Tully, Krauthammer et al,
according to George Haddow, who served as the deputy chief of staff at FEMA under James Lee Witt, Blanco's initial declaration would have been enough to trigger a full scale federal response. They would not have danced around red tape as the Bush administration has done. Nor would they have set up a political media machine to pin the blame on others.

Marcus, any reason why we should view George Haddow's opinion as more authoritative here in this instance than the citations of others? The 8/28 memo has already been linked to, and called into question. Sure, it did ask, PRIOR to the hurricane hitting, for some things, but did it specifically request the things that everyone has found wanting AFTER the hurrricane hit?

Adam, you're wasting your time asking Carla not to be overly partisan, she repeatedly embraces it, and as a result is most always willing to blame the president first, and almost always willing to defend any democrat. She likes to say that whoever she is arguing against is ignoring the facts, and that she's therefore always the fairer one. But her record on defending liberals and criticizing conservatives is virtually unblemished, which speaks volumes to centrists.

For example, she won't give an inch regarding Blanco's utter blamelessness regarding the timeliness of the presence of federal troops, and the federal goverment's complete culpability for any delay in their arrival in LA. It doesn't matter to her that the governors in other states crossed their T's and dotted their I's and got deployments faster. To her, it's simply not possible that Blanco could deserve any of the blame for any such delays. It's not even necessary to entertain such a notion, since any such delays are amply explained by the shortcomings of President Bush. Who of course must have been completely ignoring everything going on during Katrina. The mere fact of Bush's presence in Crawford is conclusive evidence of this. It's not possible that he could have been keeping a close eye on events, because, as we all know, he doesn't care about poor Americans, and as we all know, when he goes on vacation, he has no staff or communications, and he makes no effort whatsoever to keep abreast of events across the nation.

The sort of reasoning and argumentation Carla employs feels to me sickeningly similar to the reflexive unreasonable criticism of Clinton haters during their multi-term witch hunt for his scalp. Such people are exhausting, regardless of which side they are partisans for. I reccomend continuing to tune her out for the most part. I'm willing to refute her views here when they deserve, and I'll continue to take her views seriously in cases where they merit it. But my guess is that this continues to largely be a waste of time as far as expecting her to become less reflexively partisan goes.

I'm all but certain that there will be worthy blame for the shortcomings of the response to this disaster up and down the line from the locals to the feds. It's really going to be a question of how much lies where, and what actions or inactions were egregiously in error or were understandable missteps given the circumstances. But the notion that the feds are fully absolved because of local and state errors will prove wrong, as will the notion that the feds are fully to blame. And the notion that because there was a way found to overcome an obstacle, the obstacle therefore did not exist is utterly preposterous. I'll leave it to the reader to infer what obstacle I mean. Does anyone know the Spanish word for "white?"

Jean, the ACE supervizes and plans lots of flood control projects on private land. Almost all the ACE projects are on private land. Some are paid for entierly priavtely, some with state and/or federal subsidies. Next time you're looking at our state from above, pick out some of those watershed lakes. ACE built planned all those dams, and supervised their construction. Their very welcome role has been to assure that those dams and levees are built to certain standards and maintained, and not just shoveled into place with a bulldozer and then ignored. The NO levees that broke were up to the Cat 3 standards the locals had set. The locals set the standard, the locals built them, ACE inspected and monitored and certified that they were up to the set standard. That standard did not include building them high enough to hold out a Cat 4+ storm surge, on the reasoning that a Cat 4+ would roll right over them even if they held. To meet a Cat 4+ standard, they'd have had to be ten times as massive and ten feet or more taller. It also now appears that at least one of those two levees may have been hit by a barge during the storm, severely damaging it.

I'm all but certain that there will be worthy blame for the shortcomings of the response to this disaster up and down the line from the locals to the feds.

Me too, WHQ. No doubt at all. I simply won't pre-judge the evidence unless it's overwhelming--whereas the instant-expert partisans start with the sentence and verdict, regardless of evidence. But from many years experience in emergency planning and disaster work I know for certain which major screwups are overwhelmingly obvious NOW, and at which level the screwups have the most effect in terms of actual lives lost or saved. First responder rules in that regard. In mass disaster, first responder is the locals, with state support. Nothing else comes even close. The only federal first responder role is the Navy and Coast Guard, which pre-stage and deploy automatically. And they've done a fine job.

Anyone who thinks it can possibly be any different, that the feds are somehow responsible in any way for first response, much less MORE responsible than the local and state, and want to depend on the feds, I urge to acquire a self-contained submersible looter-proof armored life pod, with supplies for everyone (including air!) sufficient for at least a week. Don't forget a deck of cards so you have something to do while you wait.

Mike Brown appears to be an idiot, but I don't yet have a good enough picture to knot the rope for him. But Brown's failures, by the nature of the system, simply cannot come within an order of magnitude or two or more of the first responder level failures in terms of lives lost or saved. The ability of the federal government after a mass disaster to do much more than pass out checks and pick up sticks is severely limited by both law and logistics, and first responder role for the feds is mostly limited to the Navy and Coast Guard. Who done good.

Sorry, Jean, I almost forgot...

...why is Washington paying for them?

Pork.

And the other reason, the same one that says we WILL rebuild the city, the reason it existed in the first place. The Port of New Orleans.

For example, she won't give an inch regarding Blanco's utter blamelessness regarding the timeliness of the presence of federal troops, and the federal goverment's complete culpability for any delay in their arrival in LA.

And yet nobody has explained why troops managed to get deployed in LA if, as has been claimed, Blanco's refusal to sign was the hindrence. How could the feds have gotten around her by going thru NOLA's mayer if in fact her agreement was necessary? Either it was necessary or it wasn't. The fact that she never agreed and the troops are there pretty much blows your criticism of Carla out of the water, from where I sit. Which is to say that I think some of you (you and Tully in particular) are matching her partisan argument for partisan argument.

If you had followed the thread, Kevin, you would have noted that Blanco issued a letter asking for (unspecified type) "40,000 troops" on Friday, September 2nd. IOW, my first assumption about the insertion of federal troops was off-base by it being the state adjutant general instead of Nagin who was the figurehead for Honore. That was apparently the fig leaf for Honore and the active-duty military to walk right in--and at that point troops began arriving. It's just a fig leaf though, not a legal authorization, and the feds waltzed around it with the help of other state officials. Because Blanco refused the federalization of the chain of command, it's still an operational mess, with the active-duty troops are utterly prohibited from performing any law enforcement functions. Including evacuating those who don't want to leave.

If you think my "arguments" are "partisan," then all I can say is that reality must be freakin' partisan. I'm not really making any arguments at all. I'm doing my best to report the facts on the ground as best as I can find 'em. The glaringly obvious fact to all those who have ANY knowledge of disaster response and emergency preparedness, who are not the instant armchair experts, is that the dead in NOLA are mostly dead either because they refused to leave, or because Blanco and Nagin and cohorts in LA screwed the pooch big-time, or some combo thereof. If that doesn't fit your favored political fever fantasy or make out your icons out as saints when they've been sinners, too damn bad. Wave your magic wand and change the reality. I don't argue with tape loops.

The ongoing problem with the failure to allow the consolidation of command, from Associated Press:

Mayor C. Ray Nagin ordered law officers and the military late Tuesday to evacuate all holdouts - by force if necessary....

...As of midday, there were no reports of anyone being removed by force. And it was not clear how the order would be carried out.

Active-military troops said they had no plans to use force. National Guard officers said they do not take orders from the mayor. And even the police said they were not ready to use force just yet. It appeared that the mere threat of force would be the first option.

If you think the effects of that crucial legal detail (consolidation of the chain of command, possible only with the federalization that Blanco refused) are imaginary instead of very, very real, think again.

If you had followed the thread, Kevin, you would have noted that Blanco issued a letter asking for (unspecified type) "40,000 troops" on Friday, September 2nd.

If you had actually read the letter dated Friday, September 2nd, Tully, you would have noted that Blanco was reiterating a "previous" request vis-a-vis those 40,000 troops.

We apparently don't have access to anything formal with which to better identify the "previous" troop request. For all we know this previous communication had more detail about exactly "type" of soldiers she was asking for.

I'm sorry I can't resist but... it seems the troops we're finally sent in once the Bush administration determined that the now "toxic waters" were a potential weapon of mass destruction.

Ha ha, C3. Good one.

Tully, et al:

I was thinking about this thread as I drove home from work. It's an hour drive so I have plenty of time to think... and it's my favorite time to think for some unknown, and undoubtedly perverse, reason.

Anyway... I don't want to be misunderstood here. I don't think you are being dishonest. In fact quite the opposite is true. I don't doubt for a second that in your mind you are objectively assessing the situation and commenting accordingly.

The thing is... I know Carla very well and she is honest to a fault. I'm positive that in her mind she is honestly assessing the situation and commenting accordingly too. I have zero doubt about that.

You're both conceding at least some of the other's points. But, you both minimize those points while maximizing the points that you think are more important.

Maybe... just maybe it would be constructive to openly aknowledge the existance your own rose-colored glasses.

Sorry, Jean...

Thanks, Tully, for that succinct answer. Rest assured, I'll forgive you....someday. ;-)

That said, Kevin is right. It never ceases to amaze me how many excuses have been found for "W" in order to protect him from those ol' debbil liberals.

Really? Liberals like Andrew Sullivan, or David Ignatius or Marshall Wittman?

Or maybe you mean liberal newspapers like the New York Post or the Washington Times?

Frankly, I'll take the word of this former right winger over the word of "an anonymous Bush official" any day.

Oh, and here's a timeline for the benefit of those who have joined late.

bk, Haddow was helping run FEMA when it was successfully fulfilling its mission so yeah, I'd consider him an authority.
The letter from the 28th asked for a lot - see anything she missed? I don't.
Obviously the Bush administration thought she said enough - here's their response

"The President today declared an emergency exists in the State of Louisiana and ordered Federal aid to supplement state and local response efforts in the parishes located in the path of Hurricane Katrina beginning on August 26, 2005, and continuing.

The President's action authorizes the Department of Homeland Security, Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA), to coordinate all disaster relief efforts which have the purpose of alleviating the hardship and suffering caused by the emergency on the local population, and to provide appropriate assistance for required emergency measures, authorized under Title V of the Stafford Act, to save lives, protect property and public health and safety, or to lessen or avert the threat of a catastrophe in the parishes of Allen, Avoyelles, Beauregard, Bienville, Bossier, Caddo, Caldwell, Claiborne, Catahoula, Concordia, De Soto, East Baton Rouge, East Carroll, East Feliciana, Evangeline, Franklin, Grant, Jackson, LaSalle, Lincoln, Livingston, Madison, Morehouse, Natchitoches, Pointe Coupee, Ouachita, Rapides, Red River, Richland, Sabine, St. Helena, St. Landry, Tensas, Union, Vernon, Webster, West Carroll, West Feliciana, and Winn.

Specifically, FEMA is authorized to identify, mobilize, and provide at its discretion, equipment and resources necessary to alleviate the impacts of the emergency. Debris removal and emergency protective measures, including direct Federal assistance, will be provided at 75 percent Federal funding."