Centerfield

Envy is often the mother of hostility.

Of course, Chirac is wrong and wrong, IMHO.

People have individual reasons for opposing things. It's not a sudden attack of pessimism; I ecently noted my belief that the EU Constitution is probably failing because it's badly drafted.

And, as you know, we have our share of pessimists.

There is one thing that is probably true - their percent share of pessimists is probably higher.
ISTM that there's a correlation with population density.

Politicians on both sides of the Atlantic, though, do seem to do well out of stereotyping. Chirac says we can't see our own problems, and we serve Freedom Fries in the Capitol.

I read an article the other day that included studies on how many Germans deal with depression. I wish I could remember the source of the article, but the statistic was staggering...somewhere in the neighborhood of 2/3 of the populace say that they struggle with depression.

Both countries have high unemployment rates...in the double digits in Germany, not sure exactly what it is in France. Germany is still dealing with the East German reunification, which has proven to be very expensive and quite draining on West Germany. France is discovering that all of these immigrants that have come into the country over the past few decades aren't assimilating and they are dealing with the challenges that come with that.

All in all...they do have a lot of problems, but it most likely comes down to envy. They wish they had the power and influence that we do.

Starting with Tocqueville, I believe, observers have commented on the differences in how Americans and Europeans see the world. Americans, with less history and a less conflictual history (at least in terms of interstate wars) tend to be more optimistic because our view of history is less dark than Europeans, who have experienced the worst parts of human experience. That, of course, is a stereotype--we obviously have problems and our share of misery-but I think it suggests one reason why we and the Europeans see the world so differently. Americans tend to think there is a solution for every problem if you just try hard enough, eg. bringing democracy to the Middle East. We have never really worried too much about history because we believe we are, in some sense, outside of history. Europeans are much more skeptical because they have seen how efforts to improve the human condition have often led to disaster (Soviet Union, Nazi Germany). In general, I think Europeans have always admired the American cultural outlook. Americans, on the other hand, have never appreciated that the European has a lot IMO to recommend it--history is dark and we should be wary of utopian efforts to perfect the world. It would be nice if both sides could incorporate some of each other's attitudes. I certainly don't think Americans should become Europeans, but I think we can learn from them--as appalling as that idea is to some people.

I think one of the most profound influences shaping the American character (and I DO believe that optimisim is a part of that character) was the frontier experience. One of the reasons we believe that we can solve most problems... is simply because people HAD to solve thier own problems.... there was no one else at hand to rely on to solve those problems.... and there were also no artificial constraints blocking people from solving these problems if they posssed the ability to do so.

In contrast Europeans looked (and to a large extent still do) to outside sources of the authority to solve thier problems... The Church, The Government, The King, The Pope, The Holy Roman Emperor, etc. This is because such sources were in position (if they chose to) solve problems.... and even if individuals possesed both the ability and desire to resolve problems themselves... they were often artificialy barred from doing so because it simply because it "wasn't thier place" in society.... and allowing them to resolve issues on thier own would threaten the position of such higher authorties. I have to imagine that such a situation engendered feelings of helplessness and depression.

Even though the frontier is long gone and what I've talked about is a very large generalization.... I believe that both American and European cultural attitudes are still strongly influenced by those past differences in experience.

I still don't think we, the people, were ever universally disliked by Chirac, et al. Our leadership on the other hand...

Unemployment in France is right around 10%, and real GDP growth is somewhat flat at 1.3%. Germany is 10.5% UE and also somewhat flat at about 1.6% GDP growth. US unemployment is 5.4% and GDP growth around 4%.

Tully, thanks for giving us the facts to back up my theories. Honestly, if we were facing that kind of economic outlook, I think we'd be pretty hard-pressed to deliver on that ever-present optimistic spirit. Let's remember, many people say that it began to wane in the late 1970's.

Europe is a much more depressing place than the U.S. According to the World Health Organization, Germany in 1999 had a male suicide rate of 20.2. per 100,000 people (ranking it 32nd highest in the world), while the U.S. had a rate of 17.6 (ranking it 40th highest in the world).

France was even worse, with a rate of 26.1 per 100,000 (18th in the world). Belgium is 14th in the world, and worst in Western Europe with a rate of 29.4 (and an astounding female rate of 10.7 - where the U.S. is 4.1). Even that most enlightened of countries, Switzerland, has a rate of 29.4 per 100,000 (and a female rate of 10), coming in at 17th in the world, just beating out the Republic of Moldova).

Finally, note that among non-former Communist developed nations, the highest suicide rate goes to Japan, with a male rate of 36.4 and a female rate of 14.1.

Combine this data with the economic data Tully provided, and you really have to wonder just exactly why Europeans and the Michael Moore-left look down their noses at us.

I watched a documentary about Germany last night, hearing statements like "some people wish the wall had never come down," and "it'll take another 15 years to get there [stability]." The reporters also revealed that the far right [neo nazi] party is gaining some followers, having created a fairly wicked (by that I mean appealing) platform.

The leaders in charge don't take the far rights efforts too seriously. If Germanys leaders are pessimistic-- well, the far right contenders are bubblier and more optimistic than I've ever seen in politics before. *shudder*

Germany being the largest and richest country in Europe.. clearly money alone doesn't solve problems.

If we couldn't find work and the Canadian gov slapped a check ["allowance"] on our doorstep as a never ending Band-Aid as a great number of Germans are forced to deal with, I would eventually want to jump off a bridge too. It's like being under your parents roof for an eternity. Not everyones cup of tea. "Most people work in the unemployed Hobbyist industry.."

Thank you Pat. I had no idea the suicide rates were that high...I just remember the article talking about how a MAJORITY of the country (Germany) was on anti-depressants.

I was aware that Japan had incredibly high suicide rates. In the past, that has been attributed to the overwhelming pressure to succeed, including the purported "one chance" to get into college.

Maybe we don't have it so bad after all. Wonder if the have runaway brides who catch Greyhound buses in France?

The Fins and Danes make the Germans look downright cheerful when it comes to suicide rates, the Fins in particular. Europeans have us all beat hollow on the subject, though it's not something to brag about. Japan peaks out at #7 in the 55-64 age group. The US peaks out at #7 in the 15-24 age group.

NationMaster has some decent cross-compared crime/suicide stats.

It's interesting that a lot of people talk about Europe as it it's a paradise compared to the U.S. Yet, as people here have pointed out, they have very high suicide rates (although some of that might be attributable to the bad winters in the Scandinavian countries). And while I assume that Europe has less street crime than the US, they are hardly peaceful societies. Look at what happens at soccer games. We have had our own problems, but if the same things happened at a baseball game or NFL game here, the US would be portrayed as this society on the brink of breakdown. And why don't people talk more about the rise of the far right parties in Europe that are overtly racist, if not neo-Nazi. Not to mention problems with integrating immigrants. Europe has plenty of problems even though the American left seems to think its social model is heaven on earth.

Tully,

Nationmaster is always a great source for statistics. Note that the rankings are based on rankings in developed countries, while the WHO table I linked to provides data for all countries, hence the differences between the comparative rankings between my post and yours.

Abel, you should note that the Nationmaster data does not support the "one chance" to get into college theory about the Japanese rate, because among young people, the Japanese suicide rates are lower than ours. It's not until you start hitting the over 40 crowd that the Japanese rate picks up. Of course, if this is what I had to look forward to in my declining years, I might jump off the bridge myself.

Not that we're slouches at crime (we're not) but be careful what you assume...in terms of overall per capita crime, Finland and Denmark kick our butts. Spain leads the world in per capita robberies. Both Australia and Canada have per capita rape rates that make us look downright sedated. And when it comes to per capita fraud, that European sophistication really shows up!

Yeah, Pat, that's why I linked there. Better quality data. I think the Japanese suicide rate has a lot more to do with mid-life crisis than ours, which seems to be youth angst. "I'm 60 years old and I'll never get another promotion. The unbearable shame!"

Great article in the Economist this week about the EU Constitution vote in France and an overview of new members and potential new members. France wants to be the "alternative" to US leadership. Sounds like she's having a hard time with that even in her own backyard. Its lonely at the top!

I have a simple explanation for Europe's depression: really bad TV. French TV consists almost entirely of panel shows featuring unattractive intellectuals discussing politics in the context of Sartre. I've spent some time in France. If I was watching their TV I'd kill myself, too.

LOL, Michael. Short work weeks, restricted store hours, and French and German TV for all those long evenings...no wodner they're depressed!

France has been working real hard on being top dog in Europe. They're not stacking up the friends doing it. The longer it takes them to get a grip on control of the EU, the less likely they will.