Centerfield

Let the political grandstanding begin... From Redstate:

"When the United States government executed John Brown -- who broke its laws and paid the rightful price -- it was not the end of the fight for the great moral cause of that era. It was, instead, a grim beginning. But that fight went on, and it was won. Today, Terri Schiavo dies, wracked in her final moments by a lethal thirst and slain by the passivity of her erstwhile beloved. It is up to us, and our country, to determine whether the young woman is merely the latest -- or the last."

I wonder if some of these people go to sleep at night really taking themselves seriously.

My prayers are with Terry Schiavo's family... Both her husband and her parents.

Posted by: Mathew at March 31, 2005 10:27 AM

I've got to say that I have ended up feeling very uncertain about the Schiavo case. I started out feeling that a miscarriage of justice was being carried out against Terri.

I have absolutely no problem with respecting a patients wishes about witholding life support or efforts to keep them alive. However, what I heard initialy seemed to indicate that Terri had expressed no such desires in the case... and her husband was acting under dubious motives.

As I've learned more about the case, I've come to the conclusion that the only people who could have any degree of confidence in what Terri's wishes would have been or whether Michael was acting scrupulously are those who were personaly involved in the case, and prehaps not even them.
I hope that the Florida Courts got it right. I DO think that we have to respect and trust the judgement of the courts..... but I say this with the full knowledge that courts can and do reach the wrong conclusions sometimes, even after multiple hearings..... as innocent people who have been freed from death row after 20 years can atest to.

One thing I am certain of is that if we are going allow an end to a patients life....starvation/dehydration is NOT the way to go. I hope that Terri was truely incapable of feeling any discomfort because I doubt anyone who has been claiming that starvation/dehydration is a "gentle" death has ever gone very long without food and water THEMSELVES. If we really are serious about allowing people to decide not to continue thier lives then we REALLY aught to open up the option for physician assisted suicide.

Posted by: cengel at March 31, 2005 10:51 AM

Thank you, Mathew. I think it's pretty astonishing to hear the vast gulf in perspectives, here.

I think most people sense she had no real prospects for improvement, and shudder at the thought of ever being kept in that state.

But some view it completely opposite -- as the murder of an innocent.

It highlights a pretty stark schism in our society. But also suggests the one side of that schism is a distinct minority.

Posted by: William Swann at March 31, 2005 10:53 AM

Good points, Cengel. I think what you're highlighting is just how complicated "end of life" issues are. It is clearly more humane to use assisted suicide in this case than to let Terri starve to death. On the other hand, when we open up the floodgates to assisted suicide, it's virtually inevitable that mistakes will be made and that proper discretion won't be used in some cases.

This is just a very complicated aspect of human life. It calls for a careful balance that, in my opinion, could include something like physician assisted suicide, but where we also have checks in place to limit the inherent risks.

This is a pretty challenging area to develop good, balanced policy.

Posted by: William Swann at March 31, 2005 11:02 AM

Her soul, I hope, is free.

Posted by: rickheller at March 31, 2005 11:13 AM

I'd say there's a very solid chance that her soul was already free, and has been for some long time now.

Of course, it will only start talking to that psychic fellow Edwards now.

Posted by: bk at March 31, 2005 12:35 PM

Personally I think that her soul was in limbo all this time and I'm glad that it's finally free.

What I'm certain of is that this case was not so extraordinary that politicians had to get involved in the way that they did. The extremists who goaded their compliant servants... DeLay, Frist, the Bushes... to act should be feared. Their wielding of power will result in bad things for most Americans.

Posted by: Tim at March 31, 2005 01:05 PM

I doubt anyone who has been claiming that starvation/dehydration is a "gentle" death has ever gone very long without food and water THEMSELVES. If we really are serious about allowing people to decide not to continue thier lives then we REALLY aught to open up the option for physician assisted suicide.

Cengal; This comes from the Hospice experience of end of life cancer patient's refusing food and water. They have not, as I undderstand, complained of pain or discomfort due to lack of adequate food or fluid. In those cases simply moisturizing of lips and mouth seems to satisfy. I know of no literature that says that starvation or dehydration is a painful experience in cases such as the Schiavo case BUT I must acknowledge its a hard thing to study.

My hope in all of this is that many more folks complete their advanced directives and that we keep discussing these end-of-life issues publically. Its long overdue.

Posted by: c3 at March 31, 2005 01:55 PM

Chris,

My dad spent some time in a Soviet P.O.W. camp (was a Polish officer in WWII) and had direct experience of denial of food and water (as well as exposure). There is no way that you can convince anyone who has had direct experience of starvation/dehydration that it is anything but an excruciating experience.

Frankly, I suspect that the Hospice allusions are simply a euphamistic attempt to suger-coat a truely horrific practice because it is all that the law will currently allow. In other words, I don't find them credible at all.
Now maybe they dope these people up so much that they wouldn't notice being flayed alive...but I wouldn't call that "gentle" either.

In any event, it's easy enough to test, just see how long you can go without food and water yourself before you can't stand it anymore. I doubt you'll find it a "gentle" experience.

Posted by: cengel at March 31, 2005 04:34 PM

The key difference (not to discount at all your father's experience) is that the hospice experiences are those of the dying. I've personally taken care of several dying persons who seems not at all interested in eating and who's thirst mechanism is not "strong" enough to provide enough fluid for daiy needs. As I've mentioned above I 've cared for many Alzheimer's patients who simply lose interest (or maybe they forget) to eat.

Posted by: c3 at March 31, 2005 09:44 PM

It saddens me that once again something that should be a personal/family issue became political. It seems as it was Terris family that first put her plight into the political arena..then the vultures began to circle. The more media (or food) the more vultures.
For me this should not be a political issue but an issue of being responsible for one's self. Living wills should be something that becomes a "norm" in our culture to prevent these issues. Just as all 16 yr olds go to the DMV all individuals above the age 18 should be encouraged to complete a living will. Thats a thought, the form could be handed out along with the question of being an organ donor.
I too hope Terri is at peace, and that this was her wish.

Posted by: Stephanie at April 1, 2005 09:53 AM

Cengel, I sat with my uncle several times as he starved himself to death over the course of a month. He never said as much, but he was dying on his own terms, at home, to avoid a painful and prolonged death by cancer. The first round of treatment had looked succesful, but put him through eighteen months of true medical hell. Multiple surgeries, chemo, etc. But when it reappeared two years later in full spread the odds weren't even money again, they were a thousand to one. He had bought two decent years of life with his agony. He wasn't doing it all over again to buy a few more semi-comatose months in a hospital bed on a morphine drip. He died one year ago on Easter.

He sucked on ice chips and sipped water to keep his lips and mouth from drying out, but took no other nourishment. Over the course of that month the only pain he ever complained about was a bedsore. He took no drugs. He died peacefully at home in his favorite recliner.

I don't know that it was typical, I don't know that it wasn't. It was painful to watch but it wasn't agonizing for him. And it was certainly not the ordeal that a slow cancer death can be. He was trying to die without putting himself or his family through hell. He managed it as best he could. No one would have denied him anything, but no one was going to make him take what he refused.

I don't have any answers.

Posted by: Tully at April 1, 2005 11:05 AM