Centerfield

I don't see this as the banning of "true holiday music". That's pretty heavy handed on the part of the NY Post, not suprisingly.

That said...this is dumb. There's no pleasing everyone..so why try? Some people are going to gripe no matter what. Why not just have a mix of music that represents all sorts?

I agree that this is the kind of stuff that causes backlash. And frankly it should be a no-brainer.

Stupidity is so irritating.

The annoying thing is that if they had a good mix to cover the community, some self-proclaimed atheist would probably protest and sue anyway--and win an injunction.

Personally I think atheism is just as much a "religion" as any other, and requires a vastly larger amount of faith and ego than most. I wonder if a legal argument could be made....

Aren't religious displays allowed, as long as they draw from a diversity of religions, or presented as part of tradition? I would think the same would apply to music. And goodness knows, plenty of public colleges have Christmas trees, and carolling, and the like.

I wonder how much of this is the school over-reacting to what I would guess is a misperception of what the First Amendment requires. According to the article, Santoro claims he's had complaints. I'd doubt very much any complaints would be successful, probably even at the earliest stages, but schools may just not want the hassle.

Which is truly unfortunate. I have absolutely no problem with the idea that public schools have no business setting up concerts that only have Christian music. But to just ditch the whole thing -- for whatever reason -- before there's any complaints, much less successful complaints, is kind of silly. After all, they're going to get waaaay more complaints with this approach.

And, as the "First Amendment" lawyer quoted in the article says, "Unfortunately, it's always easier to stifle the speech than to risk a lawsuit...But this serves no one's interest. It infuriates the religious community without any corresponding benefit to maintaining the separation between church and state."

On the other hand, maybe Santoro for yet-to-be-identified reasons, has lost his mind, and thinks "Frosty the Snowman" is better than Handel. :)

Here's the constitutional question -- couldn't the students set up their own thing, without the blessing of the school? That'd be a nice exercise of free speech. One that I suspect that local chapter of the ACLU would entirely support.

Would an atheist sue over Kwanzaa?

Good question--Kwanzaa is an explicitly "cultural" holiday, not a religious one.

I would love to see the choir break free of the constraints of the school! Or, failing that, I am ready to arrange The Hallelujah Chorus for performance in the school....with some alternate lyrics that won't be "offensive" to anyone...i.e.,
(this is the Hallelujah part)

HEEEERE'S the story! of a
LOOOOOOVELY lady!
Lovely lady! lovely lady!
A lovely lady!

WHOOOOOOOOOOOO is bringing
UUUUUUUUUUUP three very!
Lovely girls! Lovely girls!
Three very lovely girls!

(this is the For the Lord God part)

All of them quite resembled their mother
(lovely girls! lovely girls)
With their hair of gold just like their mother
(lovely girls! lovely girls!)

etc. etc.

I wonder if it would drive home a point ("We really want to sing this amazingly beautiful repertoire of music, and are willing to dumb down the content to have the chance to sing it"), or if it would just be an amusing boondoggle for me??

And how many people that are humor-challenged would find THIS offensive, or miss the meaning altogether?

The Brass Ensemble has likewise been forbidden to play sacred music, and they don't even have lyrics for anyone to find offensive! I believe that they are considering the forementioned break from the school, and are considering calling themselves Not The Brass Ensemble. I believe another name they should consider is Holiday Banned.

Peace.

ROFLMAO

I think they should play the religious stuff and call themselves "The Brass Balls Ensemble".

: )

And again! ROFL....

Hell, let's just get it over with and call it Winter Solstice. And then call the days off in the Spring, Spring Break. Then we'll all be happy right?

Ahhhh.... I sense a return to paganism... and isn't that a "religion" too?

This is just an example of the typical stupidity of school administrators, on the same level as suspending kids for having Advil or some other cold medication in their back packs (which has happened several times around here). It seems as if the school administrators aren't intelligent enough to do anything but establish an absolutist policy with no exceptions; that way they don't have to use any common sense. God forbid they had to do that.

Everyone should chill out--I had to put up with Christmas music when I was a kid in school. It didn't offend my Jewish sensibilities or cause me to convert. In fact, I love Christmas music. Are atheists really that offended by Frosty the Snowman or I Had a Little Dreidel?

Doctrinaire atheists tend to be offended by everything. Like all militant fundies, they have an overwhelming desire to force others to conform to their beliefs.

I've thought of a good song the atheists could demand for inclusion in the holiday concert. Imagine by John Lennon

Imagine there's no heaven,
It's easy if you try,
No hell below us,
Above us only sky,
Imagine all the people
living for today...

The scattered responses of school systems, colleges, and businesses to these lawsuits is really best understood in the context of an "@ss-covering festival."

If you make a person or a group or an organization unsure that it can participate safely, it tends to simply opt out, especially when the argument can be made that the area of contention is not directly related to a core mission. Far from calling this stupidity, I'd say that this is really a form of reality-based organizational intelligence.

But I agree that it's very regrettable as manifested. Any proposed lasting resolution of the continuing tiffs over this would rely on going back to the idea of not allowing the government to "establish" any official religion. This idea is somewhat distinct from what it more commonly became known as, "separation of church and state."

If we refocus upon the idea of banning the establishment of religion, instead of obsessing about keeping church and state entirely separate, we'd be in a better place.

Let's face it, school is supposed to equip kids with the the critical thinking skills they need to better interact with the real world. We're not doing this if we simply wall students off from religion instead of providing opportunities for them to explore their beliefs in open contrast to those of both their immediate peers and the world at large.

The original intent of the constitution was to prevent picking a winning religion, to keep any sort of authoritarian indoctrination from occuring. The needs of our culture and of our students are simply not being met when schools choose to deal with religion by pretending it doesn't exist.

We can give religion a place, as long as we are extremely careful to not allow either domination or indoctrination.

Oh man..

If they start playing John Lennon at Christmas programs...Jerry Falwell, James Dobson, Pat Robertson and Franklin Graham will have to call an emergency meeting of the Pharisees Club.

"How dare you play that Communist drivel during our rightwing Christian holiday celebrating the birth of the guy who's life we completely ignore in favor of pushing our own twisted agenda"

Can I get an AMEN?

Speaking as a non-atheist, at least "Imagine" ss better music than half of the drivel we get. I'd go for replacing "Little Drummer Boy". How would "Imagine" sound with a "rumpa pa pum" or two inserted?

AMEN,unless they mistake John Lennon for the Lennon Sisters and think it's good, clean-cut music.

How about the Lennon Sisters doing Imagine?

If Jimi Hendrix could do The Star Spangled Banner, how big a fit could we get out of the Falwells with the Ozzy Osbourne version of White Christmas?

Just a thought.

It's a very god point that if religion is given a place at the public ed table instead of being set aside, a lot of people who clamored for a seat end up unhappy at the table.

Because the Falwells, Robertsons, and Mullah Moores, don't want a seat, they really do want indoctrination and domination. Let's turn this into thread about holiday music, or bring it up on the friday open thread, I'm something of a holiday music collector, and there's a TON of really good stuff out there.

If any of you is ever in Boston during the xmas season, be sure to catch the Black Nativity. It was written by Lagnston Hughes, and tells the story of Jesus's birth as set to a mostly gospel-flavored score. It includes a vast chorus of singers including many children. It's a truly powerful and uplifting experience. Every year we try to go, and we always try to share it with friends, often skeptical, and they are always blown away.

Why all the atheist bashing? The article cited didn't say atheists were behind the move. The article mostly focused on its author's experiences. In fact, the atheist quoted said:

Even First Amendment lawyer Ron Kuby, an avowed atheist, is on the side of the angels. "Unfortunately, it's always easier to stifle the speech than to risk a lawsuit," he says. "But this serves no one's interest. It infuriates the religious community without any corresponding benefit to maintaining the separation between church and state."

Most of us atheists are pretty quiet about our thoughts about religion -- heck we get attacked and lectured every time we try talk about religion in a frank and open way with believers. But we accept all the wonderful art resulting from the various faiths as serendipity, not invasions. (But you have to admit there's a lot of ugly stuff devoted to religion too like this block long navity here in Columbus, OH (on Broad St near downtown), that's just hideous. I'd like to see it gone for that reason alone.) Sure some atheists are freaky and extreme. Hmm, are there not plenty of religious folk who can be described the same way?

I know I'm not on board with atheist bashing, and I'm pretty sure I can speak for most of us that if it feels that way, we're sorry. I think any bashing is reserved for those who seem to be most inflexibly committed to complete separation.

As you suggest, I think the inflexibles deserve each other. Most of us stuck in the midle would pay a dollar to watch a steel cage death match between Mullah Roy Moore and whoever his atheist counterpart is...

LOL the Lennon Sisters doing "Imagine"?

In the interest of full disclosure, I had a cousin who used to be on the Lawrence Welk Show back in the day.

She was like a Lennon Sister hyped up on steroids.

Louise, as the chief culprit, let me hasten to say that I meant to speak of the noisy few, and not the quiet many. Much as with our Falwell bashing. I'm an agnostic myself, which means I'm absolutely positive that I don't know what to think. :-)

The decision was to ban the use of any and all religious music in non-vocal instrumental performances in South Orange/Maplewood schools. The district actually banned vocal performances of any religious music several years ago--the most recent flap was over a new extension of the policy.

Oh, Carla, please, no visuals! The horror! The horror! (Disclosure: I saw the Lennon Sisters in Las Vegas once long long ago, as the opening act for Andy Williams. It was quite enjoyable, if considerably different than what I usually listened to at the time. Or since.)

There's so many points to this argument, but the one that's not been addressed is the original intent of the doctrine of "Seperation of Church and State." In the Europe our founding Fathers left behind, ascension in church hierarchy meant you also had political power. THIS is what should be prevented! No one in their right mind would argue that. If someone states their Faith they can still be elected, but they have to win.
So where's the connection to bland and trite music programs in the rich and educational school systems that my parents and many others moved into on purpose, so they could give their kids the best education possible?
MR. SANTORO, I HOPE YOU ARE DEEPLY OFFENDED that such blatant stupidity on your part needs to be pointed out to you by the likes of me!!! If that's too subtle - DO something about it, and don't try to tell me you can't!
My Dad is Richard (Dick) Berggren, my sister is Kris, and I approve this message.

I approve your approval of this message, bro!

I love that there is intelligent and totally appropriate brouhaha around this ridiculous subject. Be irreverent!

Imagine there's no heaven (pa rumpumpum pum)
It's easy if you try (pa rumpumpum pum)
I'd rather act like there's a God (pa rumpumpum pum)
Than to find out I was wrong when I die (pa rumpumpum pum)

I defend any atheist's right to non-belief, and any gnostic's right to be absolutely sure they don't know what they believe (lol, I love that! well said). (Personally, I am a Druid-Christian-Pagan. Don't ask, don't tell.) However, as our dad pointed out in an ongoing email chain of intelligent discussion, the current result of this absurd edict is that of exclusion rather than inclusion. "Everything is OK as long as I feel good about it...I get to cram how I feel down your throat, and you have no say in the matter, even at the expense of your education."

I think that there should be a holiday program printed with a warning, just like on the rap CD's:

CAUTION: This program contains religious material that may be unsuitable for young children. Attend it at your own risk. No atheists have been harmed in the making of this program.

Bah humbug, and may the Frost be with you.

Kris,

I agree with you. This all seems to stem from the schools' desire to make sure no one feels uncomfortable or excluded. But the Constitution doesn't give people the right to feel comfortable every minute of every day. Being uncomfortable at times is part of the price of living in a democracy. Sometimes people just have to suck it up.

It's amazing in some ways how our perception of what is exclusionary or discriminatory has changed. Today, you are condemned for making even the most minor "racially insensitive" remarks. When I was a kid growing up in the South, the remarks were a lot more than racially insensitive. Similarly, I remember a talk show back in the 80s or early 90s hosted by Ronald Reagan's son Ron. In the spirit of these shows, his guest was a Neo-Nazi and son. After the guy finished ranting about Jews and so on, they opened it up to audience questions. A young, Jewish woman (proably a teenager as I recall) stood up and asked quite seriously, "Does this mean you wouldn't let me go out with your son?"

Wow, now that is a memory! I think that it speaks of the beautiful naivete of teenagers....do they truly understand this controversy fully, or are they just the pawns in this politicization of their education? My guess is that they are a bit of both...but awareness would not necessarily change their status as pawns. I just hope that there is enough outrage at this utter stupidity, and enough response to the nationwide negative news exposure that has ensued, that it will be enough for these folks to remove their heads from the deep dark apertures in which they are stuck, before they turn their heads too fast and break their foolish neck!

By the way Rick, this is a chat forum and is probably not accessed by Mr. Santoro. If you want him to read your comments, which are most valid, I would send him an email. I do have his email address, and I urge you to do so!

Meanwhile, I am composing more demented non-holiday holiday music...my busy brain is hard at work, and the smoke pours forth from my ears....hmmm...

I'm dreaming of a white Christmas....no, that won't do, it mentions the despicable holiday that we aren't allowed to celebrate publicly, let's see....I'm dreaming of a white Winter Solstice...no, wait, that was pointed out to be religious, as paganism actually is a religion, on which Christianity bases so many of its celebrations, of which Christmas is a major example....oh crap, let's start over...

So now are we banned from seeing the Peanuts special because they sing Christmastime is here? Everybody throw your heads back and sing Loo loo loo loo loo...